Metal second stages

[Wayward Son]

The old brass ones will make you feel it in your jaw muscles, but if you're diving regularly you get conditioned quickly & it's just not an issue.

My new G250V is light, but uses a metal air barrel. I don't seem to be any dryer after a dive with it than with my old R109 solid brass reg. They both breath incredibly well.

 

[halocline]

With the right mouthpiece and the right hose length/routing I've never noticed any jaw fatigue. The 2nd stage is filled with air, so the weight on land is almost inconsequential. It's still a little heavier in the water, but not much.

The newer seacure mouthpieces fit the old metal case SP. I use one of those and a 5 ft hose. It works great. I seem to go back and forth between a D300 and 109 (upgraded to b/a) and I honestly can't say that the metal reg feels any less comfortable. When I originally tried one with a lousy mouthpiece I did notice that I was working a little bit to keep the reg comfortable.

If atomic really wanted to go full blast high end, they'd make a complete titanium 2nd stage case.

Metal does make a difference with drymouth. The metal air barrel on the older G250 and current G250V is somewhat helpful, but I find that the metal case is less dry, I'm not sure why, except for the fact that you have more surface area for condensation with exhaled breath, which then moistens up the incoming air slightly.

Not that it's very important, but the old style SP metal reg is definitely one of the most elegant and classy looking regs ever made.

 

[Ed Palma]

Okay, slight hi-jack that might hopefully answer the OPs questions albeit tangentially:

I'm currently using an old conshelf 2nd. Yes it weighs more than the plastic regs, and is a bit bulkier. But as mattboy pointed out, it's filled with air underwater, so weight is less of an issue.

Pros: less dry mouth - condensation moistens incoming air a bit
sturdier - especially if its not clipped off and the DM or anyone else doesn't realize that it's on a 7 foot hose. It can get dragged around a bit...


Cons: maybe its my particular model, but it breathes a little wet when I'm upside down.
- lack of control: I've never really thought this to be a problem. I think my reg breathes fine even when under exertion or at depth. Thin is, I see people with feedback saying that using venturi assist and effort control knobs really help...

I'm thinking of shifting from my current metal reg to a plastic one with all the doodads. will this help me, or should i just stick to my reg?

 

[Fishpie]

I have to agree with the posters that the whole "jaw fatigue" and lighter is better as a factor of hose length and mouthpiece choice. It's an advertising ploy by the manufacturers.
I currently dive a metal Kirby Morgan super Flow which must be the biggest and heaviest 2nd stage around.....I've never had a problem with its weight causing discomfort.
As to the dry mouth....it is a factor, I have some plastic KM's that are just too dry breathing, really noticeable when swapping between the metal and plastic.

 

[herman]

............................................................
- lack of control: I've never really thought this to be a problem. I think my reg breathes fine even when under exertion or at depth. Thin is, I see people with feedback saying that using venturi assist and effort control knobs really help...

I'm thinking of shifting from my current metal reg to a plastic one with all the doodads. will this help me, or should i just stick to my reg?

This may have some truth but on the other hand a lot (most?) divers can't tell the differnace but are spouting the sales propaganda. The controls can cover for....or maybe get around... a tech who is setting up the reg to "meet specs" but not going the extra mile to make it work great. In fairness to the tech, if he does set it up on the edge it's very likely you will be back to have it readjusted once it wears in a little and there is always the know-it-all complaining customer what has no idea a reg is susposed to freeflow if you submerge it wrong and is determined the reg is defective, both customer complaints that can be avoided by setting the reg a little on the detuned side...which is also quicker and easier to do. I would have a steady stream of complaints if I did comercial work and set regs like I set my own. That said, I do like a cracking pressure control. It lets me set the reg so I can go from fairly hard breathing (for use in currents or predive ) and at the same time be able to decrease the resistance to the point of a slight freeflow. Instead of getting a new plastic one, get a Scubapro 109 and have it converted to a balanced model, then you have the best of both worlds- a cracking pressure adjustment and a metal reg. These show up on ebay all the time and the conversion is simple.

 

[Couv]

....
Oddly enough though, when Scubapro switched to plastic second stages, a new G250 cost more than the old Balanced Adjustable it replaced even though they were internally identical and the plastic case cost substnatially less to produce. So, yes, it is all about marketing and profit margin.

....and the G250 still brings a better price on eBay.....go figure. My guess it the Techies bid the price up on the 250ies because it has a easy to remove cover.

c

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

Given that metal second stages are known for thier durability and cold water performance, why is it that we don't see more divers using them? Or why don't we see more manufactures offering them? I mean it can't be all because of cost can it? since my Mares proton metals were not that expensive relitively speaking. A top of the line Atomic is like $1300 or something yet doesn't have a metal second. Is there something I'm missing??

Metal may have some advantages in cold water in terms of heat transfer, but short of that, it would seem that using some type of plastic would be a better choice for most 2nd stage housings. I don't want to sit here singing the praises of modern plastics, but it is some good stuff. Durability is really not an issue anymore. Anything you would do to a plastic 2nd that would cause damage, would've caused damage to a metal 2nd as well. Plastic can be chemical resistant and doesn't corrode. Why not use it?

 

[redacted]

Metal may have some advantages in cold water in terms of heat transfer, but short of that, it would seem that using some type of plastic would be a better choice for most 2nd stage housings. I don't want to sit here singing the praises of modern plastics, but it is some good stuff. Durability is really not an issue anymore. Anything you would do to a plastic 2nd that would cause damage, would've caused damage to a metal 2nd as well. Plastic can be chemical resistant and doesn't corrode. Why not use it?

I have a couple metal 2nds with good size dents. They still work fine. A plastic 2nd would have cracked under the same force and been unusable.

 

[Splitlip]

my new g250v is light, but uses a metal air barrel. I don't seem to be any dryer after a dive with it than with my old r109 solid brass reg. They both breath incredibly well.

+1 .

 

[Nemrod]

And, a metal second with dents and damage in most cases the damage can be worked out, the reg rechromed and it is good for another twenty years. Plastic just goes into the landfill. The new green eco conscious philosophy is to design and build products to be rebuilt, reused rather than to contribute to global pollution. Everything that you toss on the ground eventually winds up in the ocean.

N