Marking Jumps and T's

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

We can discuss various methods to mark T's & Jumps. None are perfect. The procedure I identified works best for me and I teach it to my cave students when they are learning complex navigation.

The bottom line is that team mates need to agree on a procedure BEFORE getting into the water so each will know what to expect when the team has to find its' way back to the entrance. Whether they be all together as a group or when dealing with a separation.

Unexpected separations occur as was the case a few days ago. Unexpected is one thing, unprepared for is another thing. We should not expect separations to occur, but we must be prepared for them so everyone is thinking alike as to how to fix it, deal with it and minimize the impact and eventual outcome.

Actually I am amazed at this thread and how it has evolved. What I hoped would be a civil discussion rooted in logic and critical thinking/analysis, has in part a degree of unwelcomed bravado and testosterone.

 

[LiteHedded]

We can discuss various methods to mark T's & Jumps. None are perfect. The procedure I identified works best for me and I teach it to my cave students when they are learning complex navigation.

The bottom line is that team mates need to agree on a procedure BEFORE getting into the water so each will know what to expect when the team has to find its' way back to the entrance. Whether they be all together as a group or when dealing with a separation.

Unexpected separations occur as was the case a few days ago. Unexpected is one thing, unprepared for is another thing. We should not expect separations to occur, but we must be prepared for them so everyone is thinking alike as to how to fix it, deal with it and minimize the impact and eventual outcome.

Actually I am amazed at this thread and how it has evolved. What I hoped would be a civil discussion rooted in logic and critical thinking/analysis, has in part a degree of unwelcomed bravado and testosterone.

so it's like all the other threads in the tech diving section of scubaboard?

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

so it's like all the other threads in the tech diving section of scubaboard?

HAh---for sure and every other forum....

 

[ucfdiver]

The line makes all the difference. If there's a line attached to any marker, you simply ignore it. Even in a complete silt out, you'll feel the line coming off of the arrow. In fact, during a lost line, you put the arrow in the direction you think is 'out'. Are you going to stop and reverse your arrow on the way back if you hit another arrow that disagrees? Remember, your spool/reel should be tied into it.

Pete,

Many T's are tied into an arrow and visually look identical to a jump (often because the explorer tied in just like a jump to "take a look" and then left the line there when it went). I think you're making a big generalization based on your limited experience.

 

[TSandM]

I was largely trained in MX, and do most of my diving there. You don't deal with flow, and rarely deal with depth in MX. The water is stupidly warm, and it's hard to silt out any sort of normal-sized passage, because we don't deal with clay. But navigation in MX is navigating spiderwebs. Most of the line is twisted or braided white line -- gold lines are rare outside of cavern tour lines. Alternate exits are frequent, and it's not unusual to have the arrows change direction SEVERAL times in a dive. Not all jumps are marked. Most are marked with single arrows. A few are marked with double arrows. I was taught to install a jump line without using an arrow (unless I tie in between permanent arrows) and ALWAYS to mark the exit side with a cookie. Same with a T; always mark the exit site. We mark the first contrary arrow, and some people mark all of them, although you have to carry a lot of cookies in some places to do that!

I like the simplicity of it. Rjack did a photo essay a while back on marking protocols, showing that many of them can lead to ambiguous results, but cookie-ing the exit direction will ALWAYS work, so I do it. Team versus individual cookies is a matter of argument. I prefer individual cookies, but I have seen three teams head into a cave and pass a jump line installed by another team, and when the divers who put the jump in came out, they were somewhat baffled by finding NINE cookies on the line next to their jump. (Unmarked jump, too.). Peter learned team cookies and gets quite mulish sometimes about doing it differently, so if the passage is large, the jumps are cut well back, and I think the likelihood of team separation is low, I don't always pick that battle to fight.

 

[ucfdiver]

If I run into a 'T', I leave a cookie. That is from my 'limited experience' which you really have no idea what that consists of.

Based on the quote from earlier, it sounds as if you've never encountered a T tied directly into an arrow.

The line makes all the difference. If there's a line attached to any marker, you simply ignore it.

 

[PfcAJ]

If I run into a 'T', I leave a cookie. That is from my 'limited experience' which you really have no idea what that consists of.

Ya we do. You're posting your cave logbook on another thread. Duh.

 

[rddvet]

After diving alot more in Mexico, readi threads like this about people that will place arrows that contradict the main cave arrows (something I was taught is a no-no) and doing a dive or two where my arrow would contradict the arrows in the cave, I've adopted REMs. I now use rem's 99% of the time, cookies sometimes and arrows pretty much never. My rems mean something to me, including direction, but won't to others. I make sure all of my buddies know what my rem means to me and what they can infer from it. Yes, this could be seen as a skills problem being fixed by gear, but since there's no standardization (as proven by this thread)' I do what will make the most sense to me but will also not create a problem for others.

 

[Pavao]

Ya we do. You're posting your cave logbook on another thread. Duh.

lololololol

WTH? I think he erased all his posts from this thread

---------- Post added May 6th, 2015 at 09:28 PM ----------

Great subject anyways.

I was taught to place my line in between double arrows, no cookie, this was at intro, but I wasn't to do any jumps then anyways.
Later at full cave I was taught to use the cookie on exit side, 1 by each member.

If only 1 arrow, then tie jump right at the arrow

If totally unmarked, then I'm actually not sure what I was taught, I can't remember, but I'm leaning towards placing my own arrow facing the direction of my exit and tie into it. But after acquiring more info later and here, I'm more likely to place a cookie, tie into it and place another on exit side, I will seek further info on this from more experienced divers as well as my former instructors.

 

[ScubaSam]

WTH? I think he erased all his posts from this thread

I was thinking the same. It looks like all his original posts have been removed while the quotes of the removed posts remain.