Marking Jumps and T's

[ucfdiver]

Then maybe they shouldn't be back there? I see divers do things differently than I do quite often, and it doesn't bother me at all. I dive for me and in a way that makes sense for me. I will never assume that I understand the meaning of a personal arrow or cookie in a cave unless I or one of my buddies left it. If I see a spurious line tied into an arrow, I immediately disregard it for any directional information. That's why double arrows are nice and also why I tie between them if they are present.

How exactly, do you know the difference between a personal arrow and a non personal one?

 

[victorzamora]

Then maybe they shouldn't be back there? I see divers do things differently than I do quite often, and it doesn't bother me at all. I dive for me and in a way that makes sense for me. I will never assume that I understand the meaning of a personal arrow or cookie in a cave unless I or one of my buddies left it. If I see a spurious line tied into an arrow, I immediately disregard it for any directional information. That's why double arrows are nice and also why I tie between them if they are present.

How exactly, do you know the difference between a personal arrow and a non personal one?

Pete, I'm with James on this one. Especially in a silt-out (main reason for 'em, right?)...how could you tell? It's kind of off-putting to say that someone "shouldn't be back there" because they get confused by conflicting arrows. I was taught to NEVER drop a conflicting arrow. If I were to tie in a jump not marked with arrows, I'd tie to a cookie and put another on MY exit side. When marking a jump and exiting OPPOSING the arrows, I put a cookie on my exit side.

 

[kelemvor]

I really like Jim's method. I end up doing the 'team cookie' more often than not, however.

If I come across an unmarked T (no arrows), I make a contribution to the cause and donate an arrow. Same thing on arrowless lines.

I'm still learning so don't crucify me. If I come back from a jump and find a marker on my jump line that I didn't put there.. doesn't that mean I have to leave the line in place and exit without removing the line?

 

[Superlyte27]

The double arrows provide all the navigational value you could ask for. Now, a T is different and requires a navigational element.

Pete, let's go diving. I'll show you why this statement is wrong. Those arrows might not give you the correct information for the dive you are on. They point to the closest exit, not necessarily YOUR exit.

 

[ucfdiver]

I would have no problem feeling a line coming off of such an arrow in a silt out. I can't believe either of you would have that problem either.

You're saying you'd know if the arrow is a personal marker left by someone else or a system marker by feeling?

 

[Superlyte27]

How exactly, do you know the difference between a personal arrow and a non personal one?

This is kinda why cookies were developed. You putting an arrow on the line for you, might contradict someone else's exit. Sure, that arrow is point toward YOUR exit, but it might not necessarily be pointing to the closest exit. I wouldn't want to be the guy responsible for a diver in trouble getting confused by an improperly placed arrow pointing the wrong way out.

---------- Post added May 6th, 2015 at 12:26 PM ----------

There's a goofed up circuit in peacock I used to do with a buddy of mine. It was about 8 jumps. I remember the first time I did it, I was trying to remember, did we go left, left, right left right left right..... or did we go.... blah blah blah...

Let's go do that circuit Pete. Because we'll tie in where the arrows are contradictory to our path. 90 minutes after laying cookies and reels, etc, let's see if you can remember exactly where everything was laid and placed on the way back. Maybe you can. Who knows.

 

[victorzamora]

Sorry. I don't do dives fueled by testosterone. I'm not sure why everything has to be a macho challenge, but I am certain that such hubris precedes many cave accidents. Count me out.

Testosterone or not, I think other-Pete (the CuCumber) has a valid point as a thought experiment. I have very few dives at Peacock, but I know that many of the jumps would require that. For example: Dive to Woody's Room. How would YOU do it? To me, the logical place to start would be OG, right? By the time you get to Woody's Room jump, the arrows are all pointing towards Challenge, which isn't your entry/exit. I, personally, would either install the jump between arrows and place a cookie on MY EXIT side of the arrows or I'd install the jump on a cookie and place another cookie behind it (first cookie to prevent sliding, second cookie for orientation). In an emergency situation, you might choose to go to Challenge....but following an unverified line is risky, and Challenge hasn't always been an option (it was blocked recently).

 

[LiteHedded]

he's only been 900 feet in orange grove so he has never seen that jump

 

[victorzamora]

We were talking about an unmarked jump at the beginning. Would you use a cookie or an arrow in this case? If you're going to twist my thought processes, at least do it one process at a time.

You're right, sorry. My point remains the same.....just ignore the double arrows comment (as it wouldn't apply, but the rest would). I'd install two cookies. One to anchor my line to and one for navigation. I wouldn't put a "lying" arrow in the system.

Think of the divers that didn't know we were there. Zero visibility (my trim is just THAT bad) and they get on the line. They follow it one way towards Challenge to find an arrow pointing "backwards." They turn to go in the direction of the arrow and follow the line until they get to their next arrow.....pointing backwards. Ruh-roh.

 

[victorzamora]

The line makes all the difference. If there's a line attached to any marker, you simply ignore it.

THIS is where we disagree. I think it's a bit unrealistic to think that you should completely ignore something just because it's got a line on it. I was taught to NEVER contradict the arrows in that area. That's what non-directional markers are for.

In fact, during a lost line, you put the arrow in the direction you think is 'out'. Are you going to stop and reverse your arrow on the way back if you hit another arrow that disagrees? Remember, your spool/reel should be tied into it.

I actually don't drop an arrow during a lost line event. It's a LOT of coordination required to be sitting in zero viz, looking for a line, with a reel/spool in one hand....and then to find the line, hold the line and reel/spool, drop the arrow, tie into the arrow, and then continue on your merry way? I wouldn't be doing that in an emergency. I just want to connect where I'm at to the line I lost and hit the road. In this situation as well, dropping an arrow towards YOUR exit doesn't mean your dropping an arrow to another's exit....or even the nearest.