Long term Second stage wear: Does the Atomic Titanium hold up?

[pescador775]

Beanojones may have a very special situation were he has to store regulators submerged to avoid roaches, but I dough that the salinity of the water where he dives in the South Pacific is much different than in the Caribbean.

LOL, I always blow out the second stage after storage. Never know what's in there (cough). Titanium alloy won't corrode but man, let's get real. Who needs it, or 316 SS for that matter? Chrome over brass is cost effective and lasts quite a long while if rinsed off with fresh water now and then. Forget Atomic and get a nice, diaphragm operated first stage combined with a second stage which has good WOB test results. Chances are it will have a (drum roll) stainless demand lever.

 

[beanojones]

may have a very special situation were he has to store regulators submerged to avoid roaches, but I dough that the salinity of the water where he dives in the South Pacific is much different than in the Caribbean.

I know this was said in humor, but you also seem to have trouble hearing this: Chromed brass wears out. Your regs that you don't use much (because you have so many of them, and you use them all) don't. Balanced second stage regs do. It's a a function of electrolysis (the dissimilar metals in contact between the lever and the inlet tube), the limited lifetime of chrome in harsh environments, and mechanical wear. Just because you personally have not seen it, does not mean it does not exist. Part of the reason that you may not know this, could be you dive old gear, and you think it functions well. I won't dive a non-balanced reg because I hate the way they breathe. This sort of corrosion is specific to a second stage that has a stainless lever in contact with chromed brass: In other words, just the kind of reg you do not use. Atomic has fixed this failure point two ways: It uses a non corrosive material (titanium), and there is no mating of dissimilar metals (titanium lever, and titanium inlet tube).

Any way, it's the salt AIR that gets things. As you yourself said, cars rust faster on an Island than they do in New England.

And unless you drive your cars underwater, the salinity of the ocean has nothing to do with that.

 

[pescador775]

Beano, in the space of three posts you went from being a "know nothing" to a "know it all". I wish I could cram like that. If you are so certain that the super expensive Atomic is superior why are you querying us?

Sand and salt are the agents of friction which causes wear. Regular cleaning and service of the second stage should take care of most nuisance problems. Back in the day, there was a difficulty with the brass SP R109 and I guess there still is. Guys who dove every day found that the adjustment knob would freeze in the body. Also, there was a similar problem with the screws in the clamp. After much use, the 2nd stage orifice could become rough, and that was due to corrosion, generally, My solution was to periodically disassemble and clean the regulator. Moving parts mentioned above were smeared with a little silicone grease. I would just replace a bad orifice.That stopped the problems. I can't imagine the lever wearing out the barrel, the pivot or vice versa. If it is happening it is not due to galvanic corrosion, not in a regulator which is cared for.

PS: how did you know that Luis now resides in New England?

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

The point of both write ups is that there is no magical material…there is always a compromise and there are always pro and cons to every design.

I can certainly agree that there's no magic metal. However paying more for a Ti or SS reg over a brass one is a personal choice and not a requirement. Since the OP stated that he's had issues with corrosion on other regs, then Ti is probably a better choice. And I certainly can't see a reason why the Ti wouldn't hold-up compared to the metals currently used. Is Ti and SS for the body of a 1st stage overkill? Possibly. Having a regulator that will last, say 100 years instead of 40 (I just arbitrarily chose these numbers to make a point) is probably overkill. And looked at from a strict utilitarian point of view, it's possible that plated brass is the "best" metal for the job. . . At the moment. However, I think the end of plated brass (and most other plated metals for that matter) has already begun. How long it will take to complete I couldn't tell you. The age of being an "environmentally friendly" manufacturer is here and it looks like it's here to stay. And the process of plating metals is about as environmentally un-friendly as it gets. I think this is going to cause many scuba manufacturers to start looking at other materials for this reason. My opinion about why Atomic chose SS is that it sets them apart and gives people another option. And probably wasn't done to be "green". That was just a side-benefit that they're playing-up in their marketing. There were probably other more aesthetic reasons they chose SS. Like it or not consumers do tend to like shiny things and being different.

Titanium alloy won't corrode but man, let's get real. Who needs it, or 316 SS for that matter?

What a boring world we'd live in if we only bought what we needed and not what we wanted.

 

[Luis H]

I can certainly agree that there's no magic metal. However paying more for a Ti or SS reg over a brass one is a personal choice and not a requirement. Since the OP stated that he's had issues with corrosion on other regs, then Ti is probably a better choice. And I certainly can't see a reason why the Ti wouldn't hold-up compared to the metals currently used. Is Ti and SS for the body of a 1st stage overkill? Possibly. Having a regulator that will last, say 100 years instead of 40 (I just arbitrarily chose these numbers to make a point) is probably overkill. And looked at from a strict utilitarian point of view, it's possible that plated brass is the "best" metal for the job. . . At the moment. However, I think the end of plated brass (and most other plated metals for that matter) has already begun. How long it will take to complete I couldn't tell you. The age of being an "environmentally friendly" manufacturer is here and it looks like it's here to stay. And the process of plating metals is about as environmentally un-friendly as it gets. I think this is going to cause many scuba manufacturers to start looking at other materials for this reason. My opinion about why Atomic chose SS is that it sets them apart and gives people another option. And probably wasn't done to be "green". That was just a side-benefit that they're playing-up in their marketing. There were probably other more aesthetic reasons they chose SS. Like it or not consumers do tend to like shiny things and being different.



What a boring world we'd live in if we only bought what we needed and not what we wanted.

You make some very good points about plating and its environmental impact, but considering that many (if not most) regulators are nor manufactured in Asian countries, it will be a very long time before plating goes out of fashion.

I also agree that buying a titanium regulator is a personal choice, but I just want to make it clear that (at least for most people) it is a luxury, not a need.




Beanojones
I never said that chrome plated brass never wears. I also have some gear that shows wear…but it is mostly stuff I bought used and was not well cared for.

My Scubapro adjustable regulators show some wear since I own them since the very early 70’s and used to dive them a lot, but I also take a lot of care of my gear. I stated working in a dive shop in 1971 and have always service my gear.

BTW, I think you are confusing electrolysis with galvanic reaction. They are somewhat related and often confused, but they are not the same. Electrolysis is normally referred to when there is and induced or applied external current between the anode and the cathode. Galvanic reaction is naturally occurring between two dissimilar metals.

Both electrolysis and galvanic reaction require that both metals be submerged in an electrolyte, which salt water is an excellent electrolyte. In the case of a regulator you tend to get galvanic reaction when the regulator is not well soaked in fresh water. It normally only happens if you have threads with dissimilar metals, because threads are a difficult area to rinse all the salts out of them. Since salt crystals will attract moisture, it can create a miniature electrolyte bath in the threaded area.

My experience with the stainless lever to barrel contact in the Scubapro metal adjustable second stages (109) will wear if the regulator is not rinsed and basically abused as in a rental fleet.

Obviously, based on your experience…maybe the full titanium regulator is your best choice, but I don’t believe your experience applies to the vast majority of divers. This is just my opinion…

 

[Nemrod]

Luis, I think we need some titanium Phoenix conversions, that way 2,000 years from now our future vintage converts can dive double hose in the new terraformed Martian seas.

N

 

[Couv]

"I try to teach you, but you just won't listen." ....my eighth grade teacher to our class.

...Luis, Pesky & Nemrod, stop beating your heads on the wall.

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

. . . I just want to make it clear that (at least for most people) it is a luxury, not a need.

A political consultant would have a hard time making an argument against that statement.

On a side note: I don't believe it will be the availability of plated metals that will cause a change in what metal, or other material manufacturers will choose to use in their regulators. I think it will have more to do with marketing to public perception. If these companies believe that people will pay more for a reg, even an "entry-level" reg, that is more expensive, but is "green", then they'll change materials. The fact that this can also increase their bottom line probably won't cause them to lose any sleep. I work with a lot of electronics manufacturers and we've already seen this occurring. For the sole purpose of being more "environmentally friendly" and going "green," they've begun making a switch from the cheaper, more reliable and easier to deal with tin/lead solder to a much more expensive lead-free solder. This is just one example, but you've probably already noticed that many products use being "green" as their main selling point. Even car companies are telling us in their commercials how "green" their facilities are to get us to buy their cars. It used to be they would tell us about the vehicles. I think it'll be just a matter of time before it hits the scuba industry as well.

 

[John_B]

I cannot compare the Atomic to ScubaPro, I have never used Scuba Pro products and probably never will. That is not a comment on the quality of ScubaPro, I am sure they are fine. I cannot abide by their dealer terms and restrictions.

Aren't the Atomic dealer terms (lack of real online sales, lack of market based pricing) very similar to what Scubapro enforces?

For the sole purpose of being more "environmentally friendly" and going "green," they've begun making a switch from the cheaper, more reliable and easier to deal with tin/lead solder to a much more expensive lead-free solder. This is just one example, but you've probably already noticed that many products use being "green" as their main selling point.

I can tell you for a fact that this change to lead-free solder is not just to be "green for green's sake", its required by the RoHS to sell most electronics into the EU. Given that most manufactures don't want to have dual manufacturing processes for the same products (in the same plant in China LOL!), their marketing teams simply take advantage of the EU requirement to sell "green" lead-free products into the US, Japan, etc. And your children's children will eventually thank you for reducing the lead that leaches into aquafers via landfills.

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

John- I won't go into detail, it would take to long and this isn't really the place. But in short, I can understand peoples fear of lead. Unfortunately that fear and legislation is based on more hype than science. While you wouldn't want your kids toys, food, or anything that you would normally let a kid chew on or they might easily get a hold of (like paint chips), to contain lead, it's reasonably safe in electronics. So my advice for parents is to not let their kids chew on circuit boards or eat solder. I wouldn't worry about the water you drink it's very well filtered and the lead leachate from landfills is far less than you might think. Also, switching from tin/lead to lead-free solder does not require different process', just equipment cleaning. Lead-free uses the same pots and wave solder machines that leaded solder does. Many companies split their lines, half lead-free and half tin/lead (or some other ratio). I'm all for strict environmental laws that protect us, I'm just not for the ones that are based on political pandering and hype.