LDS loyalty?

[tjmills]

Just keep in mind guys, its not the LDS who is controlling the vast majority of these pricing issues. The manufacturers are at the local level and then giving lower costs to the internet dealers who sell more product.

Like I said, the real problem will be when getting certified becomes inconvienent to the average Joe because he doesn't have a local LDS in the area. They are the ones who are buying the vast majority of new equipment but make it hard for them and we will all suffer and the manufacturers will really suffer from this. Manufacturers REALLY need to wake up to the reality of short term profits equaling long term disaster for the industry.

It concerns me because I see many of the local shops struggling and many of the shop owners taking second jobs to support themselves. This won't last for long. It would be tough if too many of them went away for me and I wouldn't enjoy driving 30-40 miles to the next one. How many people wouldn't take up the sport if this were the case? The number of new divers being certified has declined every year for the past 3 years according to DEMA. I just wonder if this is the real reason and if they are smart enough to find out.

Less divers equals less dive specials, less dive boats, less new inovative equipment, higher prices or boats not going because there aren't enough divers to send out a boat, etc. etc. etc.

I always give a local shop the first shot at meeting pricing I find elsewhere. You should too. Just remember...add that shipping cost in there too.

Thats just my opinion...I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

 

[H20Bubbles]

Just keep in mind guys, its not the LDS who is controlling the vast majority of these pricing issues. The manufacturers are at the local level and then giving lower costs to the internet dealers who sell more product.

It concerns me because I see many of the local shops struggling and many of the shop owners taking second jobs to support themselves.

I always give a local shop the first shot at meeting pricing I find elsewhere. You should too. Just remember...add that shipping cost in there too.

Thats just my opinion...I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

Yes, some manufacturers may be to blame with their pricing. But what is your LDS doing about it? How many different products does an LDS carry? What is to prevent the LDS from offering more products over the internet? Most of our LDS don't even have a product catalog on their websites, let alone any e-commerce which would allow you to buy something? The business of retail sales is all about moving a volume of your product. Why are the LDS not finding ways to market and sell more?

As I said before, like it or not the business model for the LDS is changing. There is more of a global economy which means more competition for consumers choice. For and LDS to be successful in selling gear, they are going to have to adapt and find a way to compete.

It certainly would be a shame to have them go out of business - less training, less local availability, etc. And I am all for giving the LDS a shot at providing a competitive price. But again competitive does not mean "locally" it means competitive with the best price the consumer can find. If they can come close then I am all for giving them my business. But honestly when we had bought our first gear (mask, fins, snorkel) we ended up being charged over $100 more than we would have bought the same items on through internet purchasing. :11doh:

 

[tjmills]

Yes, some manufacturers may be to blame with their pricing. But what is your LDS doing about it? How many different products does an LDS carry? What is to prevent the LDS from offering more products over the internet? Most of our LDS don't even have a product catalog on their websites, let alone any e-commerce which would allow you to buy something? The business of retail sales is all about moving a volume of your product. Why are the LDS not finding ways to market and sell more?

As I said before, like it or not the business model for the LDS is changing. There is more of a global economy which means more competition for consumers choice. For and LDS to be successful in selling gear, they are going to have to adapt and find a way to compete.

It certainly would be a shame to have them go out of business - less training, less local availability, etc. And I am all for giving the LDS a shot at providing a competitive price. But again competitive does not mean "locally" it means competitive with the best price the consumer can find. If they can come close then I am all for giving them my business. But honestly when we had bought our first gear (mask, fins, snorkel) we ended up being charged over $100 more than we would have bought the same items on through internet purchasing. :11doh:

Actually, the Manufacturers won't let them sell product over the internet. They also won't let them quote prices that are below a certain price and many times only List pricing is allowed. Do it and the Manufacturer can and many times will pull the line from you. They also reserve the right to audit your sales and if you sell below a certain price, they can pull the line.

I agree with you that the business model is changing and I also suffered this same problem and I learned. But my next purchase was a BCD, Regulator and Computuer and I gave the LDS an opportunity to meet the pricing and they did (including shipping) for the most part.

I agree completely on the business model is changing. Problem is, how do you keep the local certifications for new divers affordable and also convienent? If you aren't allowed to sell product for less than a certain price or sell the product head to head on the internet....what the hell does an LDS do?? How do they stay afloat? They know that you and I can click on the internet and find it much cheaper but then they can't sell or advertise a price to compete? What it does show is after all these years, this is still a very immature industry.

The market is changing (I agree) and the manufacturers need to let the creativity come out in the LDS's by giving a more level playing field. Manufacturers keeping the LDS from selling on the internet is just making the LDS suffer and helping promote the internet retailers. I am pretty sure this wasn't their plan in the beginning but now they are hooked on the revenue like crack. Again, without the LDS, life becomes much more difficult.

 

[redacted]

Just keep in mind guys, its not the LDS who is controlling the vast majority of these pricing issues. The manufacturers are at the local level and then giving lower costs to the internet dealers who sell more product.

Thats just my opinion...I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

Let's not forget, the LDS was the one to chose which brands to carry and which agreements to sign. I'm not saying the mfgr is clean, but the shop has the means to control most of this. While I'm sure LDSs hate paying more for a Scubapro Mk25/S600 than Leisurepro pays, the truth is they don't have to sell Scubapro - they chose to. It probably can't be done overnight or without some pain and losses, but the LDS is the key to change. And many of them just don't want it.

 

[hvulin]

Most of our LDS don't even have a product catalog on their websites, let alone any e-commerce which would allow you to buy something? The business of retail sales is all about moving a volume of your product. Why are the LDS not finding ways to market and sell more?

being in IT bussiness I can tell you that switching to internet enabled bussiness is quite a shock for most small bussinesses. If they have (and they usually do) some proprietary software it is usually hard to connect it to a web application and to keep those two in sync... - it can be done, but is a significant increase in costs (new software, hardware and personel)...

if they had the money they would probably do it (at least making a live, online catalog with prices)

 

[TSandM]

Well, to get back to the original topic of the thread, I was in my LDS last night, and one of their assistant instructors was there, buying some gear. She asked a question about something that turned out not to be a program this shop had participated in, and the shop owner said, "You must have been shopping at some other shop." And she said, "No, I don't cheat." So, there you have it . . .

 

[Vtdiver2]

Let's not forget, the LDS was the one to chose which brands to carry and which agreements to sign. I'm not saying the mfgr is clean, but the shop has the means to control most of this. While I'm sure LDSs hate paying more for a Scubapro Mk25/S600 than Leisurepro pays, the truth is they don't have to sell Scubapro - they chose to. It probably can't be done overnight or without some pain and losses, but the LDS is the key to change. And many of them just don't want it.

While I agree to a point, I also disagree. Most major manufacturers have these type of agreements, and if they choose not to abide by them, their options aren't all that rosy.
If you were in the market for a reg and went into your local LDS and they told you " we got rid of our Scubapro and Aqualung lines because we want to sell online. But, we do have this new "John Doe" regulator. It's $160 cheaper than those we used to carry and I personally guarantee it'll work" what would you do? Personally, I'd look elsewhere. I want to buy from a recognized and reputable company, not some upstart that I've never heard of that will sell me a reg a little cheaper.
It's no different buying a car, you buy based on it's reputation. I would have loved to buy a Dodge Dakota as I love the look of it, but based on it's reputation for costly repairs, I bought a Jeep recently. I've always had good luck with Jeeps.
I'm not absolving LDSs of blame, but once they have spent $10,000 plus to get a line in the store and be it's local rep, it's hard to "give the line away", possibly to their competition in order to bring in a relatively unknown that will allow internet sales. Also, once one LDS has the "area" for a line, often that prohibits another shop from carrying it, limiting the other shops available options.
Bottomline is the manufacturers have had it good for a long time, and have learned how to make the system work for them. Times are changing, albeit slowly, and a lot of LDSs are going to fail or at least get hurt. I feel bad for them. Most are good people who got into the industry because they love it, just like you and I, and are trying to make a living doing something they love. They have a limited clientele, as not everyone is a diver, have to buy and pay for their next seasons product line 6 months before the season really starts, and abide by the policies and restrictions put forth by those manufacturers. It isn't easy. Some of them take the easy way out and try to overcharge, trying to make up for the money they've already spent by making a few sales. THATS WRONG. But I can see why they do it.
If the manufacturers really cared about the industry, and their area reps, they would level the playing field and accept that like every other industry, the internet is the future and all their reps can sell on the internet. They can still have some degree of controls, by setting up areas, and only allowing one shop to cover that area as far as foot traffic. For example. In the Florida Keys, you could have shops 20 miles apart selling the same brands and both would thrive, based on the number of divers. So in that state, the areas would be smaller than say my state, Vermont, where one shop could cover the whole state. In the end, the manufacturuer still has a few hundred reps covering the foot traffic, but all of them are free to sell world wide on the internet. If shop ABC in Key Largo is making enough on his charters and foot traffic that he can afford to drop his price a bit on equipment and sell less than Shop 123 in North Dakota, so be it, and they can fight for the same internet sales. What will allow each shop to survive is marketing and service, just as it should be. The system is flawed, I think we all agree with that, but it's the manufacturuers in my opinion that are holding the cards. Until they allow change, it won't happen.
Just my 2psi,
C-Dawg

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Well, to get back to the original topic of the thread, I was in my LDS last night, and one of their assistant instructors was there, buying some gear. She asked a question about something that turned out not to be a program this shop had participated in, and the shop owner said, "You must have been shopping at some other shop." And she said, "No, I don't cheat." So, there you have it . . .

As far as how the shop takes care of their instructors go the shop I teach at makes it worth our while to shop there. No reason to "cheat" but if we did it wouldn't matter. What does matter is we only use the gear in class that our shop carries. If we don't do that, we don't work for them.

As far as internet customers go we know many of the shops customers shop the internet. We just don't offer them the same perks that we offer "loyal" customers. Doesn't that make sense?

No one at the shop I instruct for expects divers to be strictly loyal to their shop, they just reward the ones that are.

 

[nyprrthd]

Simply because one brand might be "just as good as" another brand, is not a reason to buy a brand that you don't want, or forgo one that you feel is a better option. I give my LDS first consideration when buying gear, but refuse to be locked in just because of a personal relationship.

Another thing that I have found is that most LDS don't keep a full inventory of accessories on hand. I know that it's difficult to finance so much inventory, but that's a matter of an underfinanced business more than anything else. "I can get it for you" requires that I make a second trip. When I want/need something, I don't want to make two trips to get the item(s). One to ask for the item, and one to pick it up after they order it. That is probably one of the main reasons that I do a lot of shopping on the internet. However, I still wouldn't buy big, serviceable items like a regulator or BC via mail order / internet.

 

[nyprrthd]

And another thing........

I buy things from Scuba.com, and have found them to be knowledgable, and willing to answer as many questions as I throw at them. They also tell me if they think that I don't need an item. Great customer service too. I've had the same experience with Scubatoys.com.