LDS loyalty?

[mdb]

Unfortunately that doesn't only happen in Baltimore. You just described the treatment I've been getting from my two LDS's.

TASea: Sorry to hear that your first LDS experiences were poor-unfortunately, not uncommon. Many LDS folks play the blame game and the you'll die if you use the other
brand, where will you get your air, buy from me or the highway etc. It is the prime reason our sport has stayed small for so long. This forum will give you lots of info and good tips, folks like Larry Daque @ www.scubatoys.com and Jim Herndon @ www.scuba.com will help provide good info, fair prices, and a wide selection of equipment. I do hope you can find a good local store as well. Keep diving, book some trips, take an advanced class, this is a great sport. You can dive all over the world, see things that most folks only see on the TV screen, and meet a lot of great people.
Welcome to SCUBA, don't let the b*******s get you down. Vote with your wallet.

 

[Coldblue]

Value is a variable perception. Each person has their own priorities about what attibutes of a specific product or service represent "value" to them. Think about each option you have as a weighted average calculation of attributes and the highest value among options available should be your pick.

LDS will differentiate from one another in trying to provide "value" as perceived by "most" of the customers in the market they are after. The objective being increasing the probabilty of customer perceiving more value in them than the competitors.

So the two way process begins and matches whenever the LDS offers something that means more value to you compared to available alternatives.

Loyalty IMO is something that builds up once you repeat the process a few times and the same LDS comes up first or second in your choices.

This is a dynamic process as variables are created, changed, and eliminated as time goes by (perceptions, attributes, the environment, your needs, the ongoing relationship, etc).

Is loyalty something you HAVE to give? I'd say no.
However since finding the opportunity in which loyalty builds up is not easy, i find it a valuable asset, something i'll make a big effort to keep.

Diving is a great experience, and the diving community is full of very cool people. Granted there will be a few bad apples but that shouldn't be a major concern.
Good news as was already posted is that information is widely available now and LDSs are dealing with more educated customers with more options available. Go for what represents the most value to you.

 

[Solitude Diver]

To specifically answer the original questions……

Why is it important to people that they be loyal to any particular dive shop?

For me the loyalty is based on the sense of family like community amongst the shop staff and the other divers who frequent the shop. I purchase 90% of my gear at the same place and let them know it. I never ask for discounts (even if I have spent over $20,000 there this year). In return for that loyalty, I am given discounts of 10-20% on just about everything, and they let me know they are doing it (without my asking). They give me free items and service routinely. I do not want to have to haggle, and I do not have to. They take care of me. (Quid Pro Quo). I do get on line every now and then and double check prices, and find that I am always getting a very fair deal. I am quite certain that if I were to “spread the wealth” to whomever had the lowest price, on a certain item, at a certain time, I would loose in the long run. Not to mention the efforts of having to shop around. I’d rather spend the extra time diving or whatever? I don’t remember the last time I paid for air, but it was not at that shop. If something needs to be sent out for warranty (a UWATEC computer for instance) they give me a free loaner until mine comes back.

Why do some shops have that expectation of their customers?

It is pretty obvious that there is not a lot of money in the scuba retail business. Most of those guys barely stay afloat. We have had about 7 go out of business in the last year or so in the Pacific Northwest alone. Shops are forced to hold classes dirt cheap (and even at cost) in the hope that students will become customers and start to buy there. Then the students move on to other shops looking for the sweet deals, or they buy online. This isn’t intended to hurt that shop. It is usually because the students don’t know the entire picture. Then there are those who come into the shops and waste an hour (or more) of the staffs time trying out different items, and then go order it online. The business is very competitive, and it should be of no surprise that shops count on their customers repeat business, and hate to see them go elsewhere. It is of course their job to retain the customers, but at what cost? To sell everything at their cost? It is already established that the scuba retail business is not a huge money maker.


These questions don’t seem that confounding to me. I see it from the dive shop side (as a businessman myself), and I’d like to see my favorite shop(s) stick around. But, that’s just my perspective. (And no, I do not currently, nor have never worked in the dive industry).

 

[TSandM]

Solitude diver, your arguments are precisely the reason why my husband and I decided we would buy what we could from the LDS, assuming they can match within 20% the price we can get for the same item elsewhere.

 

[Solitude Diver]

Solitude diver, your arguments are precisely the reason why my husband and I decided we would buy what we could from the LDS, assuming they can match within 20% the price we can get for the same item elsewhere.

I agree. If there is a gross price difference, then I would bring it up. They have already requested that I do this so that they have a chance to at least get close. If they couldn't, I'd assume they'd understand. I don't wish to just give my money away. I haven't found anything that warranted a price match yet though. Worst case was a Smart Pro computer that I bought for a back up. Our LDS was about $50 more than Leisure Pro online. Scuba Pro/UWATEC told me they would not honor Leisure Pro (or any online retailer) with a warranty. It was worth the extra $50 to have some where to return to and keep the warranty.

 

[tjmills]

Me.... I recently moved and am going to use 2 LDS's in the area. Both are good shops and both worked with me and I have purchased some gear and classes from them. I am glad they are in the area and realize how hard it would be without them. I DO purchase from the internet. I wouldn't buy critical equipment like computers but I would buy exposure stuff, accessories, etc. if I had to. The one thing that I have found 80% of the time is that the LDS is willing to meet prices that I have found on the internet (including shipping which most people forget about) If that is the case, I will always buy from the shop. Simple.

I do know that some of the bad experiences out there with the local LDS's happen. The LDS will cut them off if they buy from the internet, they use bad judgement with trying to force customers to buy from them...etc. I won't shop in those places at all for anything even if I have to drive 30 miles to the next one. But there is a reason for this and the pressure that the local LDS's are under. They have owned these business successfully for sometime decades and all of the sudden the internet came along and are killing them daily on prices and people are following. They have been loyal to the industry, the community and the almighty tax man and suddenly they are dropping like flies. Might seem elementary and you might even say that is the free market, and it is, but you have to also look a little deeper here.

What really kills me about all this is the Dive industry's inability to change to the times. You would think that after watching all of the other brick and motar stores be forced into making the adaptation of the internet that they would learn from this and promote an environment for the LDS's that makes everyone happy and most importantly...competitive. Instead they are telling the LDS's that they can't sell on the internet and pressuring them to increase sales opportunities all the while telling the shops that they can't sell below a certain $$ on items. All the while the internet sales are growing daily and more and more people are going there because they can buy a wetsuit for half of what the LDS can sell it for. Where the hell do you think that this product comes from....THE MANUFACTURERS. To make matters worse...some manufacturers are starting to sell their products direct over the internet. These short sided *******s NEED the LDS's in town because they need certified divers. If they continue to fight the system, squeeze the LDS's and supply the internet they will eventually burn the house down around them. The people who will really suffer are us lowly divers who won't have better and better equipment.

They are starting to get a handle on it but they are still years behind the times. You are starting to see internet prices get closer and closer to LDS pricing but I don't think the answer is all there either. My opinion is to open up the market for the LDS and give them the ability to compete on the same playing field as the internet shops and use their creativity to compete evenly with no more/no less the same restrictions as the internet shops. In turn, we are likely to find much happier LDS shops in our area, competition will thin the herd but it will happen at a local level rather than a invent a corporate LDS (which I pray are not coming but know they will unless the manufacturers pull their heads out of their asses). Retail Prices are GONE guys and the manufacturers need to realize this and the LDS's need help dealing with an ever changing, more complex market than they have ever seen. Kill them and the industry as a whole is in dire straights. Fact is..most of them are there because they were just like us, they love to dive.

I don't want anyone to think that I am necessarily pro LDS, I am pro free market and what is happening is natural progression to a degree. What hasn't happened is the manufacturers ability to deal with the problem honestly and they are hurting the industry because they would rather try and ignore it rather than turn around and deal with it directly. The internet is not going away, its only going to get bigger and more competitive and the manufacturers are going to be more and more dependent on the revenue from the shops that are selling there. My message to the Manufacturers....Help your LDS's become more competitive or suffer the consequences of getting certified being inconvenient to future divers. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

Thats just my opinion....I could be wrong. DM

 

[waynne fowler]

I'd love to tell them both to pack sand,

You must ride the dunes... sand surfers are the only people I've heard use this term... too funny!

 

[tjmills]

Guilty as charged. Years of sales/marketing in the tech industry has left me wanting.....

 

[mdb]

I don't want anyone to think that I am necessarily pro LDS, I am pro free market and what is happening is natural progression to a degree. What hasn't happened is the manufacturers ability to deal with the problem honestly and they are hurting the industry because they would rather try and ignore it rather than turn around and deal with it directly. The internet is not going away, its only going to get bigger and more competitive and the manufacturers are going to be more and more dependent on the revenue from the shops that are selling there. My message to the Manufacturers....Help your LDS's become more competitive or suffer the consequences of getting certified being inconvenient to future divers. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

Thats just my opinion....I could be wrong. DM

Tjmills: You are not wrong. Many manufacturers, including some of the largest, have multi-tired pricing, and off the price list "inside" pricing and dating for the largest accounts. The LDS is, often times, playing on a very uneven field. As you point out, the internet is not going away. This years early Christmas sales figures show internet sales @ over 3X the growth of brick and mortar sales, of course, this includes those B&M retailers who have stepped up their internet sites. The local SCUBA retailer, IMHO should be able to use all modern means to sell. Pricing should be clean and published so the smaller store can see the true picture. We are not a perfect company, but we do have a clean price list available to any legitimate dive retailer, we have our own internet site where we sell at full MSRP for those divers who can not get
one of our products locally. We fully support local dive stores and allow for single item purchase, do not require large "booking" orders etc. It seems to work for us.
The larger companies will come around; in the meantime, it is the smaller LDS stores who suffer. These good folks often work 60 hour+ weeks, keeping the store open, instructing and doing all the other things necessary to keep a small store going. If you find a good local store, stay with them, offer them a chance to compete.

 

[H20Bubbles]

I am all for supporting your LDS, but these companies have to realize that their business models are shifting. Most people are not willing to maintain a "relationship" when the cost and value of that relationship is not reciprocal.

We just went through the process of buying gear. We checked the LDS and then went pricing on the internet. Well hell... though I love the LDS that we took our certification through and have traveled with - I am certainly not going to buy from them when I can get the same gear online for extra $500-1000 less. Am I willing to pay more, yes... but within reason... say 10-15%.

If the manufacturers are saying that the LDS cannot sell online, then the business owners need to find ways to get their product online with "Call for pricing". This happens in other industries (i.e. motorcycling) and websites still sell online at discounted prices, they just can't list the lower price.

We will continue to support the LDS when we can, for training, service, maintenace, etc. But for the big ticket items... it will continue to come down to price.