Is learning from PADI that bad?

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Ok,

I know it is very dependent on the instructor, but I see lots of PADI bashing I know some (well maybe ) is in jest, but is there really something wrong with PADI and its training or is it just that on a whole there is not much expectation and if you can do the skills in the pool at a resort and do a few OW dives you get certified to dive on your vacation?

What I am really interested in finding out is, how does PADI's professional level training measure up against other agencies?(again I realize instructor dependent for the most part) For instance things like curriculum, skill work ect... Is it really bad or worth it for someone to start someone off as an instructor?

Hope this makes sense.


As an outsider I don’t have any issues with PADI’s training syllabus. I see PADI Inc as a publishing company supporting franchised instructors. Just like any other agency there are good and poor instructors, BSAC has its share.

When divers come to our training sessions the most important factor is the amount of diving they are doing. Those in the water every month fly through assessments, those that aren’t struggle irrespective of the agency card they hold. This holds true for budding instructors as well.

Kind regards
 
I just finish a weekend at which my LDS had 24 open water students and 3 rescue diver students in our PADI courses. That included a ten year old, so we had two groups of four and two groups of eight, each with their own instructor and also an additional instructor just for the rescue students. In addition we had 3 DMs on site and assisting, and there was a 6th instructor, wife of one of the others, who was also present and helping as needed. Every student received personal attention, and every student had to do more than "get through" the open water dives. With attention to standards and to student competence, we certified 23 of the 24. One student was a a reluctant participant who, after some individual work and conversation, decided it was not her time for scuba. We had an instructor remediate three students who, while completing the skills, had some difficulty. By the time each of the 23 was certified, they had demonstrated that they were ready to go scuba diving. They will each grow in their competence as divers with more experience, but I am proud to say that I was a part of their training, training that has prepared them for diving. I have never and will never apologize for being a PADI guy, because those with whom I work take their role as instructors seriously, and do a terrific job. I am confident that the same can be said for people affiliated with other agencies, and also that there are some marginal professionals affiliated with every agency. In my experience PADI works hard to maintain quality of instruction and instructional materials. But no agency affiliation is a guarantee of competence. Every instructor, DM, course director, and other professional is responsible to maintain proficiency and be current in knowledge and training. In my opinion there are no bad agencies, but there are some sub-par people in our industry. Sadly, that is true of every profession.
DivemasterDennis
 
PADI sells that their C-Card is accepted everywhere. That's the value they have positioned themselves to provide.

I agree, that is the value-add you mentioned before. But that is not all they do. They, like every other certifying agency, also sell a set of minimum requirements for training; i.e. standards, which when taught appropriately, under approved conditions, by a certified instructor, may qualify a competent and responsible student to be recognized; i.e. certified, as a diver with a defined set of skills that the now certified diver can employ in relative safety (remember I said taught appropriately) with relative confidence as they build experience through practicing what they learned during every subsequent dive after that training. This is what adds quality to any training program (notice I did not say defines quality); that there exists a basic set of standards that must be met, a basic philosophy that must be adhered to, before a lay person can be taught the skills required to become a reasonably capable diver by the end of the training program. I therefore do believe that it is indeed possible for a "pure bred" PADI acolyte and certified instructor to teach only PADI course work, promote only the PADI sanctioned philosophy of how to dive, do the secret PADI dance to make it rain, and and as long as he does this with the expectation that his students should have truly mastered every diving skill they were taught to a truly satisfactory degree (that Judge Judy would agree was reasonable if she were asked - does she dive? I wonder...) before he signs them off, the training presented to the student will have some degree of quality to it. Of course it also depends on how vigorously they participated during the PADI rain dance :rofl3:

I don't see how you could look at their marketing/self promotion and disagree, and I certainly don't see how you could take offense at that being pointed out, but if you do that's OK. It isn't the best argument fodder but what the hell, we can make it work. :wink:

I am not offended, we're just having a good, clean open discussion about this here, right? I just disagree with your statement of apparent absolute "fact" that if "[q]uality...is present it isn't coming from PADI" as you put it. Sure, PADI, like all other certifying agencies, have arguably produced what some may consider unsafe divers, irresponsible DM's and incompetent instructors. That could be because they, the individual divers, DMs, and instructors, might not have been trained properly themselves to a reasonable measure of care when they attended their own personal training courses originally, or they didn't pay attention and didn't give a rat about getting it right when they did their training and chose to just barely slide through to home base to get a c-card, or they could have just plainly become reckless and irresponsible over time regardless of how well they were taught and initially performed in the beginning. In the end the training they present in turn then continues the horrible cycle of introducing more bad training practices into classrooms. I bet though that that even you would agree that if PADI hears of any of this going on, investigates, tries to rehabilitate the dive professional carrying their logo and still cannot remedy the situation, they would absolutely, undoubtedly, and unwaveringly revoke that DM or instructor's license to protect their reputation and promise of quality training that divers expect to receive when they sign up for a class.

The standards and procedures generally remain the same, albeit with some tweaks here and there as the industry experience and knowledge evolves over time. A diver's quality of training will be measured against this absolute standard that the certifying agency puts forward in its programs when a court hears a case regarding a scuba diving related incident. It won't be oh my instructor is a great guy, he even designs his own diving courses; it is going to be did he train you to at least the standard? Was there quality instruction involved or not, or did he ignore the certifying agency's minimum requirements or violate it's procedures of quality instruction.

PADI thinks they have the perfect answer for making a good enough souffle and make some extra $$$ on top of it all; so does every other certifying agency to a greater or lesser degree. While the agencies differ in opinion on what the recipe for quality should be, hence the fact that they each have their own, they are nonetheless roughly in general agreement about what an open water diver is, what an advanced open water diver is, what a dive master is and what an instructor is. Could you imagine the legal ramifications if these industry standards did not exist? That is part of the quality dive training in general across all boards of certifying agencies give you - a baseline to which you can be measured against. Unlike the free lunches, the blue vinyl cases, the equipment rentals, and the free air fills, this is not a value add, this goes directly towards the quality that is recognized when you drop any *recognized* c-card on the counter of a dive op when checking in to book your dives. Dive ops generally don't want the liability and hassle of taking unsafe divers out to get themselves bent or killed; it's bad for business if nothing else. That is why they will laugh at Bubba's Red Neck Association of Fishpond Instructors (RNAFI) cert card he printed and laminated at home last night before he left on his trip to the coast for a holiday - they know that it is useless and a liability; they know it has no quality training, of any readily verifiable kind, that backs it up, because there are no industry accepted standards that govern the certification process.

:coffee:
 
I agree, that is the value-add you mentioned before. But that is not all they do. They, like every other certifying agency, also...

To me that's no different than MacDannels also selling hamburgers. They do, and those hamburgers are central to their business, but the primary value is the familiar and consistent experience, the hamburger is just the medium through which that is expressed.

I just disagree with your statement of apparent absolute "fact" that if "[q]uality...is present it isn't coming from PADI" as you put it.

I'm not a fan of McDonelds. If fact it's so far down my list that it has been 10 years since I have eaten at one, and that was under protest. It is a values conflict - I love variety and novel experiences, and they are focused on uniformity and predictability. However, in Buena Park California there is (or was) a McDonnalds that I consider worth going to...assuming it still exists (I haven't been there in over 10 years, remember). Still not really "my scene" but they had model railroads running around the dining room, animated model displays, all sorts of stuff that was novel for any restaurant. That turned what would otherwise be an excruciatingly monotonous and dull experience into something tolerable.

Did that stuff come from MacDonalds corporate? No. It came from a specific franchisee.

Likewise, I think the quality you are talking about is properly credited to the franchisees - the instructors - not the agency. You don't need to convince me that the two can overlap, that an instructor with only PADI training can, holding to PADI standards, deliver quality...I'll happily accept that as bolstering my own point...and I'm not sure you could convince me that the quality is coming from an organization that has such limited control and oversight over the day to day training that is done in their name.

If PADI was in fact a training company...if PADI instructors were employees of PADI, if PADI collected tuition fees from students, if they owned the classrooms and swimming pools, if training took place in PADI owned/improved facilities, and so on, the situation would be different. That isn't PADI's business model so PADI doesn't get credit for what the independent businesses (who happen to use PADI materials) actually provide. Anything else would be unfair.
 
I agree:

My ONLY gripe about diver certifications, and I'm sure this is the case regardless of agency is that an instructor can't say "No you're not certified" or "no, you need more pool time" or "you did not pass the AOW, you got lost on the 100 foot out & back portion of the required navigation dive."

Fortunately a decent instructor will be honest and upfront with you on your diving skills and progress. Recently I went on a dive trip to Cayman with an experienced instructor who has 30+ years experience and was blunt with me on my lack of buoyancy skills. I like his candid feedback and he helped me a great deal to improve over the course of the dive trip. I even was able to manage to balance the massive new camera rig without sucking down too much air and maintain decent buoyancy control. I plan to take the drysuit training from him as he really knows his stuff cold and has easy way to learn from.
 
What a discussion. I remember this same discussion when I first started working in the Dive Industry in the late 70's. I was a NAUI and NASDS instructor, but I've helped on various PADI dives/courses too. I think I may take a different track on the forming of the attitude towards PADI, rather then discussing current standards, etc. That has been done already and I know less then many respondents as I've need out of the industry for years.

Historically I think part of how PADI started to be perceived as the "fast food of diving" really started with the attitude that carried over from the 50's and 60's. In short, before equipment like BCD's made diving easier, you had to swim your heavy tank and double hose monster around, so swim fitness was important. Many of the oldest instructors were ex-navy or commercial divers, and many early courses looked like mini-navy frogman classes, with many demanding exercises (some still used, there is value to 'stress-tests' after all). They were also long. For example, my NAUI basic was 20 weeks of classes before the 3 dive open water weekend.

PADI was one of the leaders in changing this to a quicker, easier and more enjoyable way to learn to dive. I personally think there was realization in the industry in the early 70's that comfort in the water and intelligent use of equipment was safer and more enjoyable then muscling through the deep. I think NASDS and PADI pioneered this shift, as well as the retail approach to the dive industry. This earned some very bad vibes from the hard core of the time, which seems to reverberate to this day. However, PADI was a leader in moving to more OW dive time and less of the timed swim tests and the endless doff and dons - they changed the way diving is taught today. (At least at the OW level, where everyone starts.)

I also think the that the 70's shift to shorter courses meant people were less likely to skip lengthy pool and theory instruction and just jump in with a 'beach-buddy" and no training. A good thing!

Now with many years of experience diving and teaching, my take is like many others. The certifying agency is less important to learning diving then the instructor and subsequent experiences. All agencies seem to produce competent divers, provided they are instructed by competent teachers. I don't personally care what initials are on your card, provided you have one. I'm more interested in your attitude and experience.
 
My ONLY gripe about diver certifications, and I'm sure this is the case regardless of agency is that an instructor can't say "No you're not certified" or "no, you need more pool time" or "you did not pass the AOW, you got lost on the 100 foot out & back portion of the required navigation dive."
I take this to mean that an instructor cannot fail a student who fails to perform the tasks required for certification. Did I misunderstand? Because I'm fairly sure that he/she can indeed fail that student.
 
Because someone else quoted this.....

My ONLY gripe about diver certifications, and I'm sure this is the case regardless of agency is that an instructor can't say "No you're not certified" or "no, you need more pool time" or "you did not pass the AOW, you got lost on the 100 foot out & back portion of the required navigation dive."

Is that true? Says who?

I did my PADI OW recently and there were several things called out as "must demonstrate to pass", starting with the swim test onward. I certainly didn't get the impression I could blow off a CESA demonstration and the instructor was obliged to give me a card anyway.

Now, I heard some back and forth between the instructor and DMs about, well, about how they didn't think everyone would do the CESA right the first time and how many do-overs they thought people would need. They joked that I wasn't supposed to hear that, but I took it as a sign they wouldn't pass OW students who couldn't demo the skill.

As it works out, everyone in my class passed, but then again we all did everything we were supposed to do as far as I could tell. If I had totally spazed during the demos (i.e. couldn't demo a skill) I believe I would not have received a card.

Todd,

What you say may be true but I don't think it is where I was coming from. I actually think there is some awesome fast food around...some of the best food ever...but not at fast food places that are striving for something other than awesome food. Likewise, there may be awesome scuba training agencies, but not if they are striving for something else. In the case of both PADI and McDohneld's, the focus seems to be on ubiquity rather than awesomeness...that's where I was coming from.
 
I said that - I don't know for sure. It I saw people in both my ow and AOW classes that could t demonstrate basic body control, comfort in water and a guy got lost on the 100' out and back NAV dive.

You'd think these would be mandatory, yet they all passed

I'd like to see some "pass/fail" criteria enforced.

That was my only point.
 
I happen to think that every PADI Open Water instructor should be required to have taken and passed the PADI Tec 40 class (or an equivalent) just so their experience is broader than what they are teaching.

I agree with what I think the gist of your statement is, but I disagree that a tech certification alone = broader experience.
What I mean is that a certification only states that the bearer of the card performed up to the course standards. One time!
That in my book does not equal experience. If you were to say that the instructor performed 50 or more planned decompression dives I would agree that would constitute broader experience.

Doesn't an OWSI who can only certify up to DM have broader experience than what they are teaching? I know I'm picking at nits here.

To the OP, I believe an instructor needs to be exposed to a variety of situations assisting classes for example and diving in general, well before even considering becoming a dive instructor and assessing whether he or she can in fact teach others how to dive. You need to experience for yourself how you react when the best laid out plan goes south, how you react when others panic. There isn't any agency curriculum that will expose you to that.

Take your time, dive your heart out then become a certified assistant and assist in some OW classes. Maybe take a tech class and do some more advance diving, then ask yourself if you still want to teach.
 
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