Is Deep Air / Light Deco (bounce?) Discussible on ScubaBoard?

[Thalassamania]

Using Scripps standards ...

- at what point are divers "allowed" to go to 150 feet? (i.e. how many and what type of dives are considered prerequisite?)
- does Scipps encourage the use of air at that depth?
- what are Scipps equipment requirements for that depth?
- what, if any, personnel support are recommended or required for that depth?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

That's Scripps Model Standards (AAUS). Scripps Rules are specific to S.I.O.

Details are available in this PDF: http://data.memberclicks.com/site/aaus/AAUS_Nov_2006.pdf

The short answers are:

- at what point are divers "allowed" to go to 150 feet? (i.e. how many and what type of dives are considered prerequisite?)
When a diver has qualified for 150 foot Certification (also called Endorsement) that means 12 dives in each depth bracket at many institutions and 12 in the shallow brackets and 4 in the deeper brackets at some others, as well as specific approval of the by the DSO and DCB. Certification to 150 feet also requires that, "The diver must also demonstrate knowledge of the special problems of deep diving, and of special safety requirements." which is usually taken to mean meeting the Nitrox, Decompression and Mixed Gas Requirements, in addition to the depth bracket requirements.

- does Scipps encourage the use of air at that depth?
Traditionally, and historically, the science community was supportive of nitrox and resistive toward helium mixtures due to the rather extreme problems treating helium bends and the lack of problems whilst using air down to 190. The current Decompression Standards do state that: "Use of alternate inert gas mixtures to limit narcosis is encouraged for depths greater than 150 feet." which is a significant change.

- what are Scipps equipment requirements for that depth?
The requirement is not for depth but for decompression diving and is contained in Section 9.20, it basically mandates redundant systems.

- what, if any, personnel support are recommended or required for that depth?
There are no specific personnel support recommendations or requirements, save approval of the plan and personnel by the DSO and DCB.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

gsk3... it is technical training. They just don't want to call it that, because otherwise it wouldn't be an illicit 'secret' that they could cream up in excitement about.

It's just very 'Walter Mitty'.

The whole concept is ludicrous. There's nothing mentioned in this secret 'deep air' nonsense that isn't covered in AN/DP. Hum-drum stuff. Tech101.

Of course, because they aren't qualified to teach AN/DP.. they have to give it a different name and pretend it's something different (i.e. "not tech")... then they get to gloat about how radical and ground-breaking they are. They are, after all, 'recreational diving experts'.

I'm predicting that the next awesome topic of debate will be something like 'deep wreck penetration for recreational divers'. No need to do a 'tech' course. Just learn some special techniques for running lines, some contingency drills for lost line, lost buddy etc... have some redundancy... use 2 or more lights... WHY TAKE A 'TECH' COURSE?.... anyone can penetrate wrecks.... why spend the money with a fraudulent so-called technical diving expert.... when you can the same thing as a recreational diver.... blah blah blah...

Why have you morphed from the first on topic poster, who followed with many great posts, to this condescending "Mr. Hyde" who makes false accusations without providing any proof?

Who is this "they" who thinks this is "radical and ground-breaking" and claims "they" are "recreational diving experts"?

I am pretty sure I have never portrayed myself as an expert on much beyond knowing more than most about the Apollo scooter and kayak reachable waters I frequent regularly.

I have stated over and over, in numerous thread, that I am pretty much just asking ScubaBoards "authorities" some questions, and then sometimes I instigate conversations with regards to ScubaBoards "authorities" answers.

I came away from Florida just over 10 years ago with nearly all the training I could find, up to a threshold of 10 minute deco, which was advised to be my threshold by one of the dive medicine scientists who's science current dive practices have integrated in it's evolution. AFAIS, most of the applicable evolution to my location in the last ten years has been driven by lawyers, not science.

When I returned to Hawaii, I found that all that training beyond OWSI probably hurt me in the job market, because employers were not interested in Tech manual thumping preachers.

As I see it, all I have done is reported back from places that resemble the vast majority of world wide recreational diving that the way recreational diving is discussed on ScubaBoard seems to be seriously disconnected from the reality of the vast majority of recreational diving world wide.

IMHO, ScubaBoard does not want to discuss the reality of recreational diving world wide; ScubaBoard only wants to discuss a "Volvo Wagon w/ car seat in the back" version of recreational diving.

 

[Thalassamania]

...
IMHO, ScubaBoard does not want to discuss the reality of recreational diving world wide; ScubaBoard only wants to discuss a "Volvo Wagon w/ car seat in the back" version of recreational diving.

I have no idea of what is, "the reality of recreational diving world wide," and neither does anyone else. I have even less idea of what a "'Volvo Wagon w/ car seat in the back' version of recreational diving," could possibly be. All I know is what I see on the beaches and boats here and what my personal past experiences have been.

 

[Hank49]

IMHO, ScubaBoard does not want to discuss the reality of recreational diving world wide; ScubaBoard only wants to discuss a "Volvo Wagon w/ car seat in the back" version of recreational diving.

I don't think so. This thread seems to indicate a fair balance between both extreme groups of "do" or "do not do it" and a nice mix of in between.
You just seem to have a hard time accepting the anti deep air diver's points of view.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

We're at post #208 now and I still can't figure out what you're arguing for. This stuff is already included in DeconDiver's (and every other) technical diving class. And the vast majority of tech diving classes are precisely to those depths (150') on air. It's just that people take the time to learn to do it right. Which seems to be what you're advocating, but it isn't.

::

To be perfectly honest, I'm pretty sure the "real" participants in this thread figured out that you and Adobo can't figure it out, many, many posts ago, but it does not really matter because this thread is not about getting you to figure it out. :mooner:

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I have no idea of what is, "the reality of recreational diving world wide," and neither does anyone else. I have even less idea of what a "'Volvo Wagon w/ car seat in the back' version of recreational diving," could possibly be. All I know is what I see on the beaches and boats here and what my personal past experiences have been.

Well Thal, what about the fact that post #3 of this thread included this statement ...

Second, deep air dives (bounce) are done safely thousands of times a day worldwide.

and this "reality of world wide recreational diving" has not been challenged, but it has also not been discussed.



Also, since you do qualify in anyone's eyes as one of the diving experts, that perhaps over the top post you quote verified that you did not put me on ignore a few days ago.

 

[ScubaSteve]

and this "reality of world wide recreational diving"

Who says it is reality? If you want it to be reality support it with some sort of proof (and to most members, a post from Moonglow will not as proof).

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

IMHO, ScubaBoard does not want to discuss the reality of recreational diving world wide; ScubaBoard only wants to discuss a "Volvo Wagon w/ car seat in the back" version of recreational diving.

I don't think so. This thread seems to indicate a fair balance between both extreme groups of "do" or "do not do it" and a nice mix of in between.
You just seem to have a hard time accepting the anti deep air diver's points of view.

But I would counter that, as with nearly all my threads; it was never a "do" or "not do" - I point out that something is being done, and for many pages the ScubaBoard "authorities" say "do not do it" and by the end of the thread I have been painted as the leader of the "do" pack, even when there is not a "do" pack.

Other members who make the mistake of being honest and agreeing with some controversial "report from the front" of mine, also run the risk of being false accused as being part of the "do" pack.

As far as I saw, in numerous deep air threads, knowone never took any position even closely resembling "yes, divers should bounce dive deep air". At most he twisted haiku implied that like many with over 35 years of diving, he has perhaps been single air tank below 130'.

Perhaps I actually have a hard time with ScubaBoard "authorities" making false accusations about me and attacking my character based on said false accusations, repeatedly.



Speaking of kicking people around, here is a nice quote from a kicking expert that perhaps strikes me solidly in the shin ...

I've come to accept that the life of a front runner is a hard one, that he will suffer more injuries than most men and that many of these injuries will not be accidental.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Second, deep air dives (bounce) are done safely thousands of times a day worldwide.

and this "reality of world wide recreational diving" has not been challenged, but it has also not been discussed.

Who says it is reality? If you want it to be reality support it with some sort of proof (and to most members, a post from Moonglow will not as proof).

Pretty much the fact that none of the ScubaBoard "authorities" have chosen to challenge that statement seem to be a more tangible measure of proof than any endorsement from halemano would be.

There was the second paragraph from the OP ...

After a select deep air polling of experienced recreational divers and experienced recreational instructors here in one of the stupid expensive helium locals, I now encourage others to selectively poll in their respective locals; it was eye opening for me. I am blessed to have such good IRL relationships that blatant honesty spills forth with no qualms!

 

[boulderjohn]

I did a lot of trimix diving in Florida last February, and on a number of the dives there were deep air divers aboard as well. The only way you would have known was by an analysis of the back gas. Everyone followed pretty much the same protocols otherwise, including the use of two different deco gases. Our run times were quite similar. That is because the agencies that teach deep air diving (like TDI and PSAI) include all the other safety features and protocols associated with trimix in their training.

That's why it is wrong to invoke those agencies in this thread, for with the bounce diving being discussed here, we are talking about something entirely different.

I think. I am really not sure what we are talking about. So let's find out.

Would each of the deep air advocates on this thread please define what you are talking about? If you wanted to know TDI's requirements for safe deep air diving, I could tell you because the book is sitting on the desk beside me. Please tell me the safety requirements for your definition of deep air bounce diving. I would like to know the following and probably more.

1. I have read over an over again in this thread that it is not for beginners. How much experience does a basic OW diver need to have, and what kind of experience should that be?

2. How does a diver determine how much air is needed for a dive?

3. Is there any need for redundancy?

4. What protocols do you use for determining a decompression profile?

5. What training is needed to be sure one can handle emergencies at depth? (For example, it is very common in technical diving training to find dives losing buoyancy control when first practicing OOA scenarios, so there is training for that. Even when I was working on my full cave certification, the instructor always did the OOA drills in a place with a low ceiling because of the tendency to ascend.)

6. Is any special equipment needed, or is a standard OW rig just fine? For example, are DSMBs encouraged, and, if so, is deploying them at depth part of the expected training?

EDIT: 7: Do you have a standard limit for PPO2?