Is Deep Air / Light Deco (bounce?) Discussible on ScubaBoard?

[MauiScubaSteve]

I'm interested in discussing whether or not an adult discussion with regards to light deco deeper than 40 m air diving could benefit the never going to tech dive but probably will dive air deeper than 40 m divers in the world.

After a select deep air polling of experienced recreational divers and experienced recreational instructors here in one of the stupid expensive helium locals, I now encourage others to selectively poll in their respective locals; it was eye opening for me. I am blessed to have such good IRL relationships that blatant honesty spills forth with no qualms!

Personally, I can think of no "prohibition" on a freely accessible recreational activity that has has even had limited success. Even if not talking about it was a valid policy, we do seem to be talking about it, so why not talk about it in a way that helps those most in need of help?

With respect to Bret Gilliam and Mitch Skaggs the originators of TDI, this organization is a relative newcomer to the scene (1994) and one that was created in an environment that allowed access to Helium. This was not always the case, nor is Helium available to many diving locations worldwide. Regardless, there are dives that can be done on Helium that are beyond the ability of divers certified to use it.

It is not the gas that concerns me, but any dive that's beyond the experience envelope of the person making the dive. This applies to cold-water, current, depth or overhead.

Thank you ... that point needs to be emphasized. What truly bothers me about this and the many other deep air threads isn't the breathing gas ... it's that they end up promoting the notion that this type of diving is somehow a "shortcut" to proper training and experience.

Jarrod Jabolinski recently made the following statement in an article on recreational rebreathers ... but I think it applies to deep air diving as well ... or to be more accurate, to how deep air diving (bounce diving in particular) get promoted on ScubaBoard ...

I have always been a champion of people’s individual rights, even when I think what they are doing is damn fool stupid. But, I strongly believe you have a responsibility to limit the exposure of people who don’t know better. And that applies to organizations as well as individuals. It’s one thing to do something yourself, but it’s another to promote it, because now you’ve taken on a different mantle of responsibility and I take that as a much stronger responsibility.

If only those were the last two posts in the most recent deep air thread here.

For Starters: I'm requesting that each respondent make their first response without looking at the other responses; just respond based on this First Post. I'm most interested in each of your response to the underlined portion of Bob's quote above - "it's that they end up promoting the notion that this type of diving is somehow a "shortcut" to proper training and experience."

Do you think the many deep air / light deco (bounce?) threads are promoting deep air / light deco (bounce?) diving?

Do you think it would be helpful to an adult discussion to have working definitions about what we are discussing; like perhaps a definition of a deep air / light deco (bounce?) dive?



So, if you are really going to participate in like manor to others who participate in like manor, just hit the "reply w/ quote" button at the bottom right of this OP and make your first reply just to this post. (I encourage then deleting the quote of the OP before hitting your post button)

 

[lamont]

Personally, I can think of no "prohibition" on a freely accessible recreational activity that has has even had limited success. Even if not talking about it was a valid policy, we do seem to be talking about it, so why not talk about it in a way that helps those most in need of help?

Your topic presupposes that having an "adult" conversation about it is a good thing.

I don't view it as an "adult" activity.

It has a track record of killing, bending or scaring divers -- and those participating in the activity are largely overly confident about their abilities, driven by their ego or rationalizations, and have little appreciation of how CO2 will sneak up on them.

So, I'm simply exercising my freedom of speech to roundly criticize the activity as being entirely stupid and pointless, and I don't see the point of debating it or treating it like I'm debating someone making rational choices.

That still gives someone the freedom to go out there and dive that way. Nobody can stop you. But you don't have the freedom to dive that way *and* talk about it in public *and* not have me call you out as an idiot.

And JJ would largely agree with me. The quote you point out there is just defending your right to have the freedom to dive that way. If you go up and ask his opinion in public of what he thinks of those practices he's going to say that they're stupid and dangerous and indefensible, too.

If you want to do it, do it. Wear some thick underwear if you want to come post about it in public though. The constitution doesn't give you the right to force other people to not roll their eyes in disgust at you -- in actuality it gives everyone else the right to do exactly that.

 

[Moonglow]

First, "light deco" is deco.

Second, deep air dives (bounce) are done safely thousands of times a day worldwide. That said, as an active NAUI recreational and technical instructor I teach to NAUI standards and recommend them.

 

[knowone]

So whilst you have the biggest non educator in the "recreational" diving industry which by the way is ANY diving conducted by "private persons" hand in hand with the biggest diving forum willing to accept promote and qualify incompetent people to dive, and utilising the continued use of fear as their business model promoted by the likes of colorado whom by the very nature of his blatant hypocrisy is unlikely to ever leave the safety of perambulating on all fours and walk like a man on two feet then I would suggest

research, making a plan if you are able, and diving it rather than expecting the truth

because engaging other's ego and firm beliefs as interference is brilliant and if any of these threads had anything to do with the imparting of relevant information by people competent to impart it to those that were worthy of receiving it which no one here is because the ability and progression of diving comes only from diving, making yourself known through high competence or as a piece of untarnished clay to be taken into the fold to become enlightened by divers diving

as diving beyond your training would seem an oxy for morons



I wonder of those that insist that comfortable is sitting in the lap of the ventriloquist with a hand up their back
operating a glass jaw attached to a head of stone sprouting glib quotations exposing their complete inadequacies

for

if it were not for all the oldnbold divers over time
you would still be wondering where I am going
and what is under here

 

[DeerCreekers]

Knowone-I never have the foggiest idea what you are trying to say

 

[knowone]

Some appreciate observational humour

others, fart jokes

 

[lamont]

if it were not for all the oldnbold divers over time
you would still be wondering where I am going
and what is under here

What we call recreational bounce diving was the edge of the envelope decades ago.

Those pioneers discovered that it gets progressively more difficult until you hit a 300+ foot limit where people start to simply go into a state resembling unconsciousness, and the ability to use drop weights to safely ascend has "mixed results" (aka a euphemism for "many fatalities").

Sheck's _Caverns Measureless to Man_ has many examples of fatalities due to bounce diving on air.

The deep air proponents on SB aren't in the same category since the paths around there are now all well travelled and we know which routes have all the danger on them...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm interested in discussing whether or not an adult discussion with regards to light deco deeper than 40 m air diving could benefit the never going to tech dive but probably will dive air deeper than 40 m divers in the world.

I suppose it depends on whether you consider willfully violating industry-wide safety practices and diving beyond your training to be an "adult" thing to do.

Should we also have an adult discussion on how far into a cave one should be able to go without cave training?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[RonFrank]

One of the last groups that did a huge bounce dive on air with no backup plan, no redundant gas, not even the ability to reason as they approached 400ft did not work out well. One dead, one paralyzed from the chest down.

Is that the type of adult conversations you would like SB to host? There are better ways to dive deep as is obvious from those tech divers who train and dive within their training. SB has vast areas dedicated to the safe pursuit of tech diving, wreck diving, rebreathers, cave diving, and deco diving. We even have areas dedicated to DIR and other philosophy's.

Bounce diving is not a known discipline, nor is the 'safe' practice of this type of dive possible. In a word deep diving is risky when you refuse to bring enough air. IOW stupid, as it's easy enough to make these dives relatively safe.

I am closing this thread as there is no such way to make this diving safe, and no more point in discussing unsafe practices. There are plenty of forums where deep diving is appropriate, but it is not bounce diving on a single tank.

Closed.

 

[RonFrank]

This thread has been moved to the tech forum and reopened.