In defense of Casual Divers

[Walter]

So thanks for all your responses - I have read them all and many valid points were made.

Then why haven't you clarified your points?

 

[Walter]

As a cause for accident, diver error is much less likely when there is a divemaster at each end of a guided tour

Nope. It means the diver error is less likely to result in injury or death. The errors are just as likely to take place.

 

[Walter]

When an individual comes to SB with less experience board members generally want to help and give it very generously. But when it it isn't applied to a specific individual, rather to a population of a diver type, then they're all strokes waiting to happen and take you down to the briney deep. I'm over simplifying things here, but I have certainly noted a strong tendancy to flame or at least grill divers who are not the diver everyone else thinks they should be. It seems to tak on the appearence of "US v. THEM".
Can't we just enjoy what we do, however we do it. Can't we all just get along?

I see it differently. I see folks with experience trying to help folks who've been ripped off by having inadequate classes sold to them.

 

[IXΘYΣ]

Howie, I understand what you're trying to say and it was very well put; however, I also strongly disagree with it. While the average diver shouldn't have to concern themselves with which side to mount a stage or what goes on this d-ring, every diver is supposed to be qualified to dive within recreational limits safely. Obviously you don't feel that they are but what's striking is you feel this is OK. If an agency says a diver is competent to do a specific type of diving in a specific type of environment, that better be true or these divers are either going to hurt themselves or their (strike that, OUR) environment.

If these divers are only qualified to dive when flanked with dive masters then we need to start printing cards that say that. We also should probably look at beefing up DM requirements beyond their current minimums as I've seen DM's that aren't even competent to look after themselves much less a group of divers.

Would you argue against the honest evaluation of a diver's skill by the certifiying instructor? That's not happening today or none of these divers would need to be escorted on the reef since everyone of them has a card that says they can dive with your resort without any leash. It sure would save you a lot of grief if the diver's card truely reflected their skill level.

There is a great misconception here as to what a "C" card is, and what it means - especially in the States.

First, it is a "Certification" card; it is neither a "Qualification" card nor is it a "Currently Competent" card. In the States, there is no legally binding qualification system, nor is there any restriction or law governing who can be a recreational scuba diver. All the "rules" are self imposed by the industry and its agencies and insurers. There is absolutely nothing to legally prevent someone from buying their own gear, their own compressor and their own boat and heading out for the Andrea Doria! This is as it should be.

Second, the certification itself only certifies that the bearer went through the course and met the minimum standards of the agency concerned on the day the evaluation for the card was conducted. Nothing more. Nothing.

Recreational Scuba is just that - recreation. It doesn't pose a public safety hazard like an automobile or an airplane or a boat (beyond possibly dinging a prop with your tank or skull, and we do have dive flag laws to prevent that). Because Scuba is an individual risk activity, there is zero basis for anyone to dictate to anyone else - especially via government - what they can and can't do in it (aside from doing things that endanger others or others' property or the environment).

While I'm all about safe diving, I'm even more about freedom. If someone wants to be a sheep and hire a shepherd then they should be free to do so, and no one has any business preventing that arrangement. And oh, by the way, a diver who is incompetent today may have been perfectly competent and properly trained and advised on currency and competency by his/her instructor on the day the "C" card was issued, so lambasting the agencies or the instructors is passing the buck to where it doesn't belong. It is an individual responsibility - ultimately if a diver is incompetent it is that diver's own "fault." It is also that diver's free choice and right.
IXΘYΣ

 

[LavaSurfer]

I couldn't go to that resort. All that being watched would make me feel like I was being watched and give me the jitters.

A DM in front and one in back...sounds cozy. I wonder what those folks would do if they try diving without a herd of divemasters to herd them around.

As much as I LOVE Roatan, I ran into this at almost every dive outfit I went to.
Anthony's key drove me nuts, two worst dives I have ever made were there and they wouldn't let me dive until I "Proved" myself, then they proceded to take me on a drift dive where we swam into the current for 35 minutes till we were all low on air.

I didn't want to hi-jack but this is a typical resort mentality. DM's become baby sitters. I am sure its based on liability but it does drive me nuts.

The best dives I have done were on my own shore diving or with Tylls dive shop in roatan where I could basically do as I wished. They still watched until they got to know me though.

 

[BiggDawg]

Nope. It means the diver error is less likely to result in injury or death. The errors are just as likely to take place.

You are, of course, absolutely correct.

I said "As a cause for accident diver error ..."
I should have said "As a cause for serious or fatal accident diver error..."

A fine point, but a valid one, none-the-less.

 

[Walter]

IXΘYΣ,

Excellent points and I strongly agree with almost all of it. The part with which I disagree is your assumption that everyone was competent at the time they were certified. There are incompetent instructors issuing certifications to folks who just aren't ready. There are also agencies that, IMO, have standards that are inadequate to the task of training competent divers. I do agree they should have the right to do so and folks should have the right to dive w/o certification. OTOH, no one has a right (agency or instructor) to mislead their customers into thinking they are receiving top notch instruction when they are not. The old, "the instructor make the difference, agencies are all the same," is one of the biggest lies I've ever heard.

 

[Walter]

A fine point, but a valid one, none-the-less.

An important one. If those errors that DMs corrected before injury or death were reported it would more accurately reflect the dangers of diving.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I have no problem admitting that there are allot of you on this board who have allot broader experience base and a world more technical knowledge then I have and if there is a worse speller around here I haven't seen him yet...........

I really think that you can teach the folks that come here a world of great and wonderfull stuff.

I just don't understand why everything has to end up if you don't do it this way you are going to DIE...... Or if you don't do it this way you must be an idiot and shouldn't be allowed in the water. Sure there are risks involved but then almost everything we do invovles nearly as much.

Hope you guys understand that I want Scuba Board to grow...

You would be suprised at the number of folks I meat who have ventured on to this board only to leave cause they can't stand the preaching.

So thanks for all your responses - I have read them all and many valid points were made.

A couple of points. Can I come to your resort with my OW or AOW card and pick my own dives? What about those special invitation dives you mentioned? Why would I need to be watched at the lodge, on the boat and be sandwiched between a DM in front and one in back? If not, why? My card, in theory, says that I'm qualified to make those decisions myself. Why do you run things that way? Is it to keep people from getting into trouble? Is it do it this way or maybe die?

Rarely do I see or hear anyone say "do it this way or die". There are lots of things that can be done to make diving lots more fun for those who don't want to be surrounded by DM's who are planning every detail of their dive for them though.

You like to tell people what to do and control it when they're diving. I like to tell them what to do and control it when they are training and then leave them alone to do their own diving. Which way is more restrictive over the longer period of time?

I suppose that it doesn't matter to me which one chooses. The issue that I have is that divers often don't have the choice. The need for your supervision is built into the training and the industry as a whole. If a diver is looking for more it's hard to find and the choices are very limited.

In an earlier post you said that your goal was to avoid panic. That's my goal too but I have no intention of following every one around on every dive. You go with them to keep them out of trouble. I'd rather teach them to stay out of trouble themselves even when you aren't there.

If you gave card carrying divers the freedom that I suggest without all that supervision do you think that some would get into trouble? Might some of them die? The industry doesn't have a huge death toll but lets give all the DM's a year off but keep the captains and boats working and all the divers diving. What would happen? Would some fall victem to that panic that you work so hard to avoid? You must think they would otherwise there isn't much need for you is there?


Kind of like the old saying...give a man a fish and feed him for a day but teach him to fish and feed him for life. I want to teach them to fish and you're worried that I'll scare them away because learning to fish is just too much work for some one who just wants to sit down and enjoy eating a fish. You want them to have the fish too but you are going to hand them each fish they get and without you, they don't get any fish or they try and get all the lousy fish because they don't know how to get the good stuff.

 

[mania]

If you analyze carefully BSAC reports on diving accidents or any other reports you would find that in fact majority of it is done by recreational divers or as it was called here "vacation divers". In the last BSAC report the major reason for all accidents was rapid ascent due to the lack of buyoancy control - typical thing for "vacation divers". Most of accidents happened at the depth between 10 - 30 meters - rather typical for recreational than technical divers.
The second biggest group are more expierienced divers pushing their limits.

So coming back to vacation divers. They simply don't have enough skills or knowledge. And it's not their fault, it's the fault of those who taught them.
I don't expect everybody diving trimix, doubles, stages etc... But even those who do it once a year should have a bit more than a basic knowledge or skills.
One more thing - I dove only once in Carabean (jamaica) but never been to the most famous places I read about here (roatan, bonaire, cozumel).
Here in Europe in fact they are often given as an examples of places where the DCS is one of the most common things. Why? Because the "vacation divers" lack the knowledge about diving phisics while doing 4 dives per day, 5 days a week with too short surface intervals and a lot of tropical drinks in the evening...

similar things can be observed in Egypt - there are plenty of "vacation divers" who dive once or twice a year. They all come to watch beautiful uw life. But at least in Egypt they do max 3 dives a day with standard surface interval between dives 2 - 3 hours.

so my question is - if you have a group of let's say 10 "vacation divers" and only 2 DMs - are you sure you can insure safety for all of them, poorly trained ones?

You also help remind us that many people dive solely for the beauty and opportunity to experience a different side of nature, rather than the opportunity to admire their gear and knowledge of dive physics.

I have to disagree with you. I dive solely for beauty of what's underwater. I dive for fun. Still the better gear and deeper knowledge allows me to do it in a bit safer way.

I think that majority of us started as a vacation diver. My attitude though was to seek the knowledge, to get better and better in diving. At the beggining I was not diving so often as now. Maximum few times a year. But I wanted to learn instead of being led by a DM as a person without its own will.
I love diving with good DM becasue they often see more uw that I do. And they show me this - as lately if not DM I would not see the seahorse (thanks KeyLargoBrent :sappy: )

So my attitude is as following:
If i do something I want to do it well. People should not be excused for not seeking the profficiency in things they want and CAN do. Even if this is diving only once a year.

I have a lot of friends who don't use BP/wing, don't dive doubles and use split jet fins. And we dive together and have a lot of fun together. But they know what they are doing uw despite the depth. They are as good at 10 meters depth as at 50. I don't tell them - "you have to change your gear" or "you are a stroke". Some of them dive only once, maybe twice a year. But everytime they want to learn something new in diving. And probably sooner or later they will follow my path - from vacation diver to more expierienced one with different gear set up.

Mania
PS. sorry if I was harsh but I think that not telling people that diving is a dangerous sport, that EVERY dive is a deco dive only because we don't want to scare them or loose business is a wrong thing to do.