In defense of Casual Divers

[MB]

Thanks HowieDean - you do pose a good topic for discussion, and with it, an implicit question about whether experienced & vocal divers are able to appreciate life above the water line. You also help remind us that many people dive solely for the beauty and opportunity to experience a different side of nature, rather than the opportunity to admire their gear and knowledge of dive physics.

 

[Matthew]

I think he was defending his industry that takes in all divers to explore their underwater world. He watches for those that need a lot of help, gives credit to those that don't, and really watches for those that think that because they know what a wing and backplate are, they don't need help ... cause those are the ones that really can cause harm. Again, if you pose, you're not authentic.

A backplate and wing do not make a good diver. And a jacket BC, split fins, and a snorkel do not make a poor one. Like any sport, understanding, talent, and practice make a good diver. Unfortunately, most divers refuse to practice, and most are pretty short on talent from what I've seen. However, I am unsure what "harm" is being caused by those who choose to dive in a BP/W config.

I dont think he's talking about gear, he's describing an attitude.

Dont be too quick to preach, you're just proving his point.

 

[loosebits]

Howie, I understand what you're trying to say and it was very well put; however, I also strongly disagree with it. While the average diver shouldn't have to concern themselves with which side to mount a stage or what goes on this d-ring, every diver is supposed to be qualified to dive within recreational limits safely. Obviously you don't feel that they are but what's striking is you feel this is OK. If an agency says a diver is competent to do a specific type of diving in a specific type of environment, that better be true or these divers are either going to hurt themselves or their (strike that, OUR) environment.

If these divers are only qualified to dive when flanked with dive masters then we need to start printing cards that say that. We also should probably look at beefing up DM requirements beyond their current minimums as I've seen DM's that aren't even competent to look after themselves much less a group of divers.

Would you argue against the honest evaluation of a diver's skill by the certifiying instructor? That's not happening today or none of these divers would need to be escorted on the reef since everyone of them has a card that says they can dive with your resort without any leash. It sure would save you a lot of grief if the diver's card truely reflected their skill level.

 

[Walt1957]

Would you argue against the honest evaluation of a diver's skill by the certifiying instructor? That's not happening today or none of these divers would need to be escorted on the reef since everyone of them has a card that says they can dive with your resort without any leash. It sure would save you a lot of grief if the diver's card truely reflected their skill level.

Now there's a novel concept, a certification that means something.

Of course that doesn't account for the dive-once-a-year crowd since even a full cert is meaningless if they didn't do any diving afterwards.

 

[Matsya]

Howie, I understand what you're trying to say and it was very well put; however, I also strongly disagree with it. While the average diver shouldn't have to concern themselves with which side to mount a stage or what goes on this d-ring, every diver is supposed to be qualified to dive within recreational limits safely. Obviously you don't feel that they are but what's striking is you feel this is OK. If an agency says a diver is competent to do a specific type of diving in a specific type of environment, that better be true or these divers are either going to hurt themselves or their (strike that, OUR) environment.

If these divers are only qualified to dive when flanked with dive masters then we need to start printing cards that say that. We also should probably look at beefing up DM requirements beyond their current minimums as I've seen DM's that aren't even competent to look after themselves much less a group of divers.

Would you argue against the honest evaluation of a diver's skill by the certifiying instructor? That's not happening today or none of these divers would need to be escorted on the reef since everyone of them has a card that says they can dive with your resort without any leash. It sure would save you a lot of grief if the diver's card truely reflected their skill level.

:yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap: :yelclap:

 

[gcbryan]

All I want are for recreational divers to be taught a rockbottom rule as simple as "300 psi plus 10 psi / ft". When they hit that limit I want them to be taught to thumb the dive. If their DM ignores them I want them to be taught to flip the DM off and ascend. On the first dive of every vacation they should practice at least one OOA and mask remove and replace. If they don't run out of gas and can react well to emergencies they're going to be much better off. I'd also like them to be taught option #1 and rules or suggestions for thumbing the dive before it even starts (stolen more from aviation than any diving TLAs). And I'd like them to be taught when they're going to be getting in over their head -- like divers with a dozen dives and an AOW card doing a cold water dive on a 100 fsw wreck in current.

They don't need to be taught how to do ratio deco.

Many if not most highway accidents could be prevented if people were more careful or do you think those that aren't careful simply weren't trained well enough in driver's ed?

Do you think that those who have run out of air diving wouldn't have done so if there training had been more precise? Do you think those that run out of air thought that zero psi would be a good amount of air?

 

[Matsya]

Many if not most highway accidents could be prevented if people were more careful or do you think those that aren't careful simply weren't trained well enough in driver's ed?

Do you think that those who have run out of air diving wouldn't have done so if there training had been more precise? Do you think those that run out of air thought that zero psi would be a good amount of air?

I personally think that training encourages discipline. Without being individual specific and talking only about probabilites I think that it is more probable that an intensively trained diver (or using your analogy - driver) will generally tend to be more careful than a diver (or driver) with less intensive or superficial training.
This is purely my opinion.

 

[Web Monkey]

When they hit that limit I want them to be taught to thumb the dive. If their DM ignores them I want them to be taught to flip the DM off and ascend.

Considering the number of threads here that contain phrases like " I showed the DM/buddy my SPG and he kept going", the second hand-signal and when to use it should be part of all the OW classes.

Terry

 

[jbichsel]

The irony is in the people that post 5 paragraphs defending how intense they are about diving and why their "system" rocks are only identifying themselves as part of the group that he is talking about.

I have been in the military and law enforcement ... a basic rule of poker always comes up: if you play heavy, you have a weak hand. Translation: if you spend a lot of energy convincing people you are a "serious" ______ (ex: diver, MF'er, killer), you are not one, you are a poser.

I was also in the military, back when every one of my basic training DI's was a Viet Nam vet, usually multiple tours. I'm very thankful they did not subscribe to the phylosophy you've posted about. They were more than willing to talk about and impart their experience and wisdom.

After basic training, I had some very enlightening conversations with many of them about their combat experiences. I'm glad they were willing to talk.

But given your view, I guess they were all just making it up or had only read it in books and were relating some one else' experiences.

Somehow, I got the impression that the mass of medals on their dress uniforms weren't bought at an army surplus store. Especially the one DI with that big medal on the blue and white ribbon. CMH.

They did not brag nor boast, but were willing to teach and talk about what they had learned that would help keep us 'cruits alive.

I think he was defending his industry that takes in all divers to explore their underwater world. He watches for those that need a lot of help, gives credit to those that don't, and really watches for those that think that because they know what a wing and backplate are, they don't need help ... cause those are the ones that really can cause harm. Again, if you pose, you're not authentic.

An old zen saying: Those that don't know of "it", speak and those that do know of "it" do not say.

This last line is going to put a new twist on teaching, dive briefings, skills presentations, etc. Hope this doesn't become the new industry standard: Read a book, watch a PowerPoint presentation, never hear the instructor again.

 

[jbichsel]

Using the driving analogy, here in Colorado I think the state is taking the wrong approach.

It appears that in an effort to save young drivers from themselves, Colorado is going to raise the minimum driving age to 17 from 16.

In my estimation, this is not addressing the root cause. Age alone is not a major factor. Experience and training have more to do with the problem. I think that a longer period of having a learners permit that requires not just another licensed driver, but a licensed legal guardian or parent in the car. Putting a 16 year old behind the wheel with a 17/18 year old friend is not necessarily a great idea. Plus raising the standards of drivers ed.

I grew up in rural Montana, stated steering the car at 5, started driving tractors on the road at 10, had a farm permit to drive trucks on the road at 12, had a full drivers license at 14. Granted, not everyone is going to have that much experience available to them, but simply raising the age does not automatically make someone a safer driver. Better training and more experience go much further.