Ice diving and drysuit buoyancy

[popolarbear]

Interesting thread. you should follow our anchor ice diving challenge on MNscuba.com last years challenge has 60,000 reads.

TRINITY'S 3rd annual 2012/2013 icing challenge

buoyancy in shallow depths can be challenging for regular open water divers who are out of their element. in shallows i sometimes dont bother at all with drysuit inflation. the squeeze isn't that much in top 20ft or so. we have discussed this extensively. using drysuit for buoyancy is the old way. i think something like pre 1980's or so, they taught this. bc's are good. enough. ive noticed some of our local minnesota ice divers diving with weight belts aproaching 40lbs with very controlled buoyancy. these are also small guys in the under 180lb range!

 

[oneshotshooter]

I am not sure that the doubles is the solution that quarantees a more safe ice dive. Personally I think having 2 circuits totally independent of each other is more important to this discussion. I don't use an octo ice diving on purpose [it's a freeflow issue I'll discuss later].

I have 1 circuit [pony 13 hose clamped to primary tank upside down, button gauge, single long 6' hose hooked into my Air2 and bc]; the second circuit goes to my spg, drysuit and second stage bungied to my neck with snorkle keeper for quick release. I sling a 19 on right side with reg on short hose and secured to bc with cave line [avoiding metal-to-metal connections as much as possible] . I carry a large pink knife on my left shoulder strap. In case of OOA you take my primary out of my mouth, yank it off the keeper and get composed. Then you take my knife off my shoulder cut through the strings and toss the knife away if you are panicky [your life is worth more than the knife, which, being pink I can probably find later anyway...I will only ice dive 35 - 40' max. You probably can't unhook the mounting clips with big gloves on].

The reason that having everything on one circuit is bad is that (1)in case of a full blown freeflow your 1st stage freezes opening both your second stages. They act as overpressure relief valves in this case. Air is escaping everywhere. (2)Also your bc inflator may freeze open and you can save gas loss by unplugging it if you do it before it ices up. (3)Another situation I had was when I went in and my drysuit inflator was frozen shut somehow and I couldn't put any air in my suit.

---------- Post added March 25th, 2013 at 11:20 AM ----------



How do you keep them inside the fish house.......I imagine you fight them off with spearguns.... How do you carry all the extra spears???

I'm going to comment on your 93 minute dive in the reply to the next quote.

---------- Post added March 25th, 2013 at 11:59 AM ----------



I think there should be more communication with the tender especially in a training situation. I think there should be a signal that says "I am having issues here and I need to get back to the hole asap with your assistance. This is not an emergency yet." There should be another signal for "We are having an emergency situation, get us the Hell out of here inmmediately; damn the torpedoes-full steam ahead."

You can't really plan to share air under the ice in a normal situation with the standard gas management plan. A couple months ago I had a free flow on the surface with a steel 72 upon entry. The 1st stage blew and then both secondaries opened up as pressure relief. I was empty in 90 seconds and no way to stop it as the shut off valve was frozen open and encased in ice.


I swear by a pony during ice diving!!!

The zombies are even slower underwater! They didn't like to stray from the fishouse that was loaded with fish. A dive knife to the head was sufficient !
I also swear by a pony for ice diving. I sling a 30 ft.³ one.

we have customized our rope signals. one aggressive tug for give me some slack, Two tugs for the okay symbol, three tugs for the I have located the target, tow me in, or tow me in leisurely, 4-multiple tugs, the SHTF,emergency. One time we were training the local safety and rescue crew on ice diving tending. We also happened to be in a very target rich (anchors) environment. pick up the anchor, add air, and get towed back to the hole! it was awesome! I think we found 10 to 15 anchors that day!

If I am 90 min into my dive and I have a free flow, I switch to my 30 cubic Ft. pony and a leisurely swim back to the hole after shutting down my main tank. On the 93 min. dive, I was diving on HP 130 and terminated the dive with 400 psi in my tank and a full pony. Max depth was 20 feet, at the shallow point, my tank was rubbing on the ice surface with 6-8" of water below me.

 

[oldflounder]

If I am 90 min into my dive and I have a free flow, I switch to my 30 cubic Ft. pony and a leisurely swim back to the hole after shutting down my main tank. On the 93 min. dive, I was diving on HP 130 and terminated the dive with 400 psi in my tank and a full pony. Max depth was 20 feet, at the shallow point, my tank was rubbing on the ice surface with 6-8" of water below me.

I hope you don't think I was criticizing in any way. I was trying to get the point across about how long some dives can take and how a freeflow at that time doesn't give you much time to return......precious seconds.........no time to Stop/Think/Act.....you had better be sailing toward that hole.....1 foot per second wouldn't work.

A person had better have redundancy and not rely on a buddy as his redundancy. My dives with my 72 in shallows usually last about 1/2 hour and I follow the rule of thirds. I would be hurting if I was far from the hole without redundancy and a freeflow happened.

 

[nimoh]

I am not sure that the doubles is the solution that quarantees a more safe ice dive. Personally I think having 2 circuits totally independent of each other is more important to this discussion. I don't use an octo ice diving on purpose [it's a freeflow issue I'll discuss later].

I have 1 circuit [pony 13 hose clamped to primary tank upside down, button gauge, single long 6' hose hooked into my Air2 and bc]; the second circuit goes to my spg, drysuit and second stage bungied to my neck with snorkle keeper for quick release. I sling a 19 on right side with reg on short hose and secured to bc with cave line [avoiding metal-to-metal connections as much as possible] . I carry a large pink knife on my left shoulder strap. In case of OOA you take my primary out of my mouth, yank it off the keeper and get composed. Then you take my knife off my shoulder cut through the strings and toss the knife away if you are panicky [your life is worth more than the knife, which, being pink I can probably find later anyway...I will only ice dive 35 - 40' max. You probably can't unhook the mounting clips with big gloves on].

The reason that having everything on one circuit is bad is that (1)in case of a full blown freeflow your 1st stage freezes opening both your second stages. They act as overpressure relief valves in this case. Air is escaping everywhere. (2)Also your bc inflator may freeze open and you can save gas loss by unplugging it if you do it before it ices up. (3)Another situation I had was when I went in and my drysuit inflator was frozen shut somehow and I couldn't put any air in my suit.

I think you have a misunderstanding as to how manifolded doubles work. There are two "totally independent" first stage regulators, if one freeflows, it can be shut down, but the gas in both tanks can still be accessed from the other regulator.

I am not sure I understand your setup. In particular the 6' hose to your air2. What is the purpose of this? Better yet, can you post a picture? Obviously, this is a system that works for you, I am curious to see if there is something I can learn from it, as a fellow ice diver.

 

[oldflounder]

I think you have a misunderstanding as to how manifolded doubles work. There are two "totally independent" first stage regulators, if one freeflows, it can be shut down, but the gas in both tanks can still be accessed from the other regulator.

I am not sure I understand your setup. In particular the 6' hose to your air2. What is the purpose of this? Better yet, can you post a picture? Obviously, this is a system that works for you, I am curious to see if there is something I can learn from it, as a fellow ice diver.

I know how the manifold works, but that's not my point. I know you can switch one off and go on the other. If your drysuit and bc are on 1 circuit off one of the tank's first stage and you shut it off to switch over you loose the ability to regulate your buoyancy. If both first stages are rigged up through y's to the bc and drysuit no problem.

I have had most of my problems on entry when the air was in the low 20's. I have taken to the practice of breathing off my Air2 and pony 13 when I duck under. If I have a freeflow I can shut it off quickly, and if I can't, I only loose 13 ft3. I will just continue the dive knowing I have no pony reserve and just stay near the hole and play in the water. Once I get under and my primary tank/1st stage has acclimated a little and warmed up hopefully, I switch over to it.

On the other hand, if I go in with my primary tank right away and there is a freeflow [which may not be able to shut off because of frozen valve] I loose all my air and the dive is over unless I brought more tanks.

I need the 6' hose to have enough reach to go from the upside down pony, up along the tank to the top of the primary neck and then wrapped under the bc/neck loop, over my left shoulder and into my harness loop, then hooked up to my bc/Air2. It is tight against the unit with no flopping around which might be an entanglement hazard. This works well for me and is the result of a lot of trial and error.

 

[oneshotshooter]

I hope you don't think I was criticizing in any way. I was trying to get the point across about how long some dives can take and how a freeflow at that time doesn't give you much time to return......precious seconds.........no time to Stop/Think/Act.....you had better be sailing toward that hole.....1 foot per second wouldn't work.

A person had better have redundancy and not rely on a buddy as his redundancy. My dives with my 72 in shallows usually last about 1/2 hour and I follow the rule of thirds. I would be hurting if I was far from the hole without redundancy and a freeflow happened.

Not at all! It's good to chat and learn from other ice divers. It gets old discussing options with the same old small group we have here in MN. I never rely on my buddy or the tender.

Some agency's limit ice dives to 25 min., I thought I would catch some flack on that. We use handwarmer packets in dry gloves, foot pockets, and on the kidney area. My hands used to get cold, now I look like the boogeyman swimming with my hands up trapping air in my zip gloves. A 38% mix keeps the handwarmers warmer than usual.

 

[nimoh]

I know how the manifold works, but that's not my point. I know you can switch one off and go on the other. If your drysuit and bc are on 1 circuit off one of the tank's first stage and you shut it off to switch over you loose the ability to regulate your buoyancy. If both first stages are rigged up through y's to the bc and drysuit no problem.

I have had most of my problems on entry when the air was in the low 20's. I have taken to the practice of breathing off my Air2 and pony 13 when I duck under. If I have a freeflow I can shut it off quickly, and if I can't, I only loose 13 ft3. I will just continue the dive knowing I have no pony reserve and just stay near the hole and play in the water. Once I get under and my primary tank/1st stage has acclimated a little and warmed up hopefully, I switch over to it.

On the other hand, if I go in with my primary tank right away and there is a freeflow [which may not be able to shut off because of frozen valve] I loose all my air and the dive is over unless I brought more tanks.

I need the 6' hose to have enough reach to go from the upside down pony, up along the tank to the top of the primary neck and then wrapped under the bc/neck loop, over my left shoulder and into my harness loop, then hooked up to my bc/Air2. It is tight against the unit with no flopping around which might be an entanglement hazard. This works well for me and is the result of a lot of trial and error.

So you are carrying 3 send stages?

1. Air2 on a 6' hose to a pony mounted on you primary tank
2. Primary reg to your back gas
3. Stage bottle slung on your right side

Then your BC is inflated from the back pony, and your dry suit is off your back gas correct?


I guess my setup is not all that functionally different in that my bc inflator is off my right tank, while my dry suit is off my left., so I never lose both by shutting down one. Also, I can swim my self up without either so I guess I don't see that as a big issue.

Lastly, do you experience a lot of free flows? After about 20 ice dives, I have not had one. I did have a stuck inflator once, but was able to thaw it out on the surface before descending.

 

[oldflounder]

So you are carrying 3 send stages?

1. Air2 on a 6' hose to a pony mounted on you primary tank
2. Primary reg to your back gas
3. Stage bottle slung on your right side

Then your BC is inflated from the back pony, and your dry suit is off your back gas correct?


I guess my setup is not all that functionally different in that my bc inflator is off my right tank, while my dry suit is off my left., so I never lose both by shutting down one. Also, I can swim my self up without either so I guess I don't see that as a big issue.

Lastly, do you experience a lot of free flows? After about 20 ice dives, I have not had one. I did have a stuck inflator once, but was able to thaw it out on the surface before descending.

I suppose you are right in that I do not understand the configuration for doubles. If both 1st stages are routed to bc and drysuit separately then you have 2 separate circuits like I do. And yes I have 3 second stage setups though though one of them serves a sacrificial purpose. My slung 19 is for when SHTF and I can donate it.

I have not been ice diving that long. My freeflows early on caused me to realize: (1) not to dive below 20 air temp, (2) keep the gear indoors overnight, do not pack the car the night before [esp. if it is 15 below, etc.], (3) sacrifice the 13 ft3 in the beginning so that I still have my main tank later after it has acclimated, (4) keep a bucket of hot water nearby, (5) keep it shallow, (6) no cowboying or pushing the envelope.

 

[oneshotshooter]

I suppose you are right in that I do not understand the configuration for doubles. If both 1st stages are routed to bc and drysuit separately then you have 2 separate circuits like I do. And yes I have 3 second stage setups though though one of them serves a sacrificial purpose. My slung 19 is for when SHTF and I can donate it.

I have not been ice diving that long. My freeflows early on caused me to realize: (1) not to dive below 20 air temp, (2) keep the gear indoors overnight, do not pack the car the night before [esp. if it is 15 below, etc.], (3) sacrifice the 13 ft3 in the beginning so that I still have my main tank later after it has acclimated, (4) keep a bucket of hot water nearby, (5) keep it shallow, (6) no cowboying or pushing the envelope.

Don't breathe off your reg or even put it in your mouth until you are under water, make sure you are using cold water regs, use a cooler for your hot water it will stay warm longer. We use a turkey cooker to heat the water and a big cooler you can stand in to warm your feet. Try diving out of a heated fish house shelter.

 

[Glenn08]

No. If you are depending on a surface tender to save your life, you should not be under the ice. If you can't tend your own line, and you don't have the proper back-up gear, you should not be under the ice.