Ice diving and drysuit buoyancy

[oldflounder]

No. If you are depending on a surface tender to save your life, you should not be under the ice. If you can't tend your own line, and you don't have the proper back-up gear, you should not be under the ice.

If this is true then there would be very few ice divers around. Most agencies train students using the tender method. This is basic ice diving. As you get good at it you may become a more advanced ice diver and may choose not to use a tender. Look at the scientific researchers in the Antarctic, the under ice photographers and those like you that use cave line. You are not a basic beginner ice diver. I am and so are many reading this. This is how most start out. I understand you can teach yourself to ice dive, many have in the past. You may have been taught by experienced ice divers.

In the beginning you must depend on that tender to save your life for the very reason that you don't have the proper backup equipment; you must expect to encounter freeflows as part of the training process because you don't know how to use the equipment properly. I'm trying to make a point that freeflows gobble up your air in no time and you better have backup.

I might agree with you if I were diving your way. You drop an anchored line down the hole and jump in. At the bottom you tie your cave line off to the anchored line and off you go hundreds of feet out, far out of site of the hole. I understand that one of the agencies teaches it this way [NAUI?]. I understand this is how many do ice dive.

More power to you but I don't think you should say that we all have to dive your way and shouldn't be under the ice if we don't.

 

[nimoh]

If this is true then there would be very few ice divers around. Most agencies train students using the tender method. This is basic ice diving. As you get good at it you may become a more advanced ice diver and may choose not to use a tender. Look at the scientific researchers in the Antarctic, the under ice photographers and those like you that use cave line. You are not a basic beginner ice diver. I am and so are many reading this. This is how most start out. I understand you can teach yourself to ice dive, many have in the past. You may have been taught by experienced ice divers.

In the beginning you must depend on that tender to save your life for the very reason that you don't have the proper backup equipment; you must expect to encounter freeflows as part of the training process because you don't know how to use the equipment properly. I'm trying to make a point that freeflows gobble up your air in no time and you better have backup.

I might agree with you if I were diving your way. You drop an anchored line down the hole and jump in. At the bottom you tie your cave line off to the anchored line and off you go hundreds of feet out, far out of site of the hole. I understand that one of the agencies teaches it this way [NAUI?]. I understand this is how many do ice dive.

More power to you but I don't think you should say that we all have to dive your way and shouldn't be under the ice if we don't.

I think Glen08 was just referring to the dependence on a surface tender, and I agree with it mostly.

When ice diving with a tender, I think it should be done as an open water dive. if you have problems you need to get yourself to the surface, and of course the surface is blocked by the ice, so you use the line to find your way back to the hole, or once at the surface if you need to get back to the hole in a hurry, tug on the line and get the tender to pull you out faster. I don't think you should ever have the tender pulling you up from depth.

Ice diving with cave line should be conducted like a cave dive and IMHO requires cave training.

On many dives in the arctic and antarctic surface lines are used because of high current flows, without the line the divers would be dragged miles from the drop in point.

 

[oldflounder]

Ice diviing with cave line should be conducted like a cave dive and IMHO requires cave training.

You have to understand that I am putting my thoughts down as newly certified ice diver and I am trying to pick the brains of experienced divers and at the same time give out info to those that might want to learn to do it. If you do a Google search on ice diving 'how-to' there isn't much out there.

I don't think you need to be cave certified. Different regions of the world have different methods of ice diving. From what I understand, up here in the Northeast it is done in quarries and ponds and lakes in relatively shallow depths less than 40'. I was trained to dive buddy teams on a 100' line, each diver has their own tender. When one diver comes back, both come back. A safety diver is handy at 90% with a 125' floating line. You are trained that if you become separated from the line you go to the surface and wait there. You absolutely do not go off looking for the hole on your own. Theoretically w/in minutes the tender will notice the line is slack and there is no response. The line should not be pulled in....leave it there so the safety diver can go out to your last known location. If the buddy is unable to find you quickly he/she returns to the hole and the safety diver is sent out 125' past your line to begin a sweep on top under the surface of the ice. The idea is that the floating line will snag on you and you will grab ahold of it and find your way back to the hole with the safety diver.

Now this is just very basic ice diving training around here. Just one form of ice diving. From here you go on and get more advanced as you progress in your skills. A lot of places don't dive with buddies/tenders. Maybe you go out on your own on a 2mm piece of cave line. That's fine. Maybe you do need cave training for some types of diving. Around here, the way I see it, the only similarity with cave diving is the overhead environment and the need for redundancy during freeflows. You don't need arrows pointing the way, you are not as concerned with long-lasting silt outs, you haven't got to be as self-reliant if you are part of a team, it is much less dangerous than caving if you do it the way it is taught. There is much more to basic caving than to basic ice diving. I understand what Glen08 is saying but he and I are looking at it from different perspectives. I dove this past Sunday with one of my buddies who is an experienced ice dive/cave diver. We went in via shoreside open water under the ice shelf for a ways on a cave reel and I loved it. I understand the way i was trained is not always how it is done in 'the real world'.

 

[popolarbear]

Don't breathe off your reg or even put it in your mouth until you are under water, make sure you are using cold water regs, use a cooler for your hot water it will stay warm longer. We use a turkey cooker to heat the water and a big cooler you can stand in to warm your feet. Try diving out of a heated fish house shelter.

we were shooting this weekend! its tough to drag a gun/ hold a flashlight, and hold the rope all while hunting under the ice in thick weeds. dude i saw a giant carp this weekend. I’m disappointed it slipped by.

as to the 1 foot per second rule. that makes sense if your in deeper water. but in our shallow water. some of our local divers have adopted. grab the line and run as fast as you can. the diver will have ascend to the surface, and some do underwater skiing. at 25t we slow to hand over hand to avoid hitting the divers head n the block. amazingly we did one of the deeper ice dive for small inland lake that approached 90ft in depth. this made me think about the protocols with safety stops and accent rates, something that isn’t seen on many of our typical inland lakes visited.

shooter I’ve got several comments to your posts
"We use hand warmer packets".. i did some experimenting with a prototype electric foot and back warmer
much like you describe. it made the long 10hr days we have been averaging much more bearable towards
the end.

"Not at all! It's good to chat and learn from other ice divers. It gets old discussing options with the same old small group we have here in MN. "....I agree. it is good to chat with these other guys. especially the guys diving Antarctica. very interesting.
this tetherless diving on a saftey reel i find very interesting technique.


"we have customized our rope signals. one aggressive tug for give me some slack, Two tugs for the okay symbol, three tugs for the I have located the target, tow me in, or tow me in leisurely, 4-multiple tugs".......yes. in our main group the
group has guys from like 4 or 5 different training agencies. all trained to ice dive differently.
finally we had to agree on a set simple signal system. once in awhile we add an odd
signal for signaling distance to a new wreck found. or locating items distance to hole.
also interesting it seem locally the greatest most varied assortment of signals come from public safety divers who are
ice diving and using specific signals to communicate search patterns.(these are safety divers not using com units)


currently the easiest set of signals has been simplified to simply one pull for ok, multiple pulls get me out. On the ride out. One pull would be slow down stop I saw or need to stop for some reason. Two pulls could be mark this distance for top side reference. 3 pulls lightly I need out. 3 pulls harder get me out now. Etc. easiest set to remember. I can only comment that there are a few ice crews running locally(MN) that have so many signals they keep them all listed on plastic cards! No one can remember them all!



"On many dives in the arctic and antarctic surface lines are used because of high current flows, without the line the divers would be dragged miles from the drop in point."........
most all the ice divers here in Minnesota are tethered. keep in mind vis even in winter on inland lakes
can be poor. one dive in particular on lake Minnetonka comes to mind. Vis that you could barely see your nose! That’s in the
middle of a sunny day. This lake is unique in that it is made up of several smaller lakes connected by channels. we had a spot later in the day that you could see the bottom in 40ft!


"A lot of places don't dive with buddies"....we have adopted single diver diving.

some thoughts come to mind that i would like to ask this forum.

for the antarctica divers. they are unique in that they dive sub-Freezing water. as i understand salt water in this area
can drop below freezing temps. i am curious if any unique things happen at this temp. like dry suit failure, or perhaps the need
for "special" air. I understand that scuba air is relatively dry. but i also have herd in some "dry-cold" instances that small amounts of
moisture under subfreezing conditions can slowly build up. in particular in space(not unlike what we are doing). and that long term perhaps after many repeated fills at this subfreezing temp, the moisture could build up to be a problem in a tank.

I’m also very interested in hearing about various emergency situations that other ice divers have had.
i can share that from the several groups of ice divers i currently hang with, it has happened several times were the
tanks valve shut off while bumping the surface of the ice. in one case the knob came off! in another case it was out of air! This brings up the concept of being able to turn off(or on) your own rear mounted tank as a requirement much like cave divers are required. Would most ice divers be able to accomplish this skill?

I personally would have to disagree with the idea of cutting the safety line in a snagged situation. i would argue you are
safer staying in place "snagged" and signaling for a rescue diver to attempt to free you. this to me is the only high risk situation
i can think could happen in a typical inland lake ice dive ,there is always some "Human Error Rate".

also would it make sense that the safety procedures be different under different amounts of visibility?

how would you train for an under the ice snagged situation? how to train for the removing of a snagged partner?
I’ve been seriously considering that a portable compressor a requirement to take with a safety equipment on ice dives mainly for snagged
scenario. if you could pass a regulator to the snagged person, then you would have an unlimited amount of time to deal with this snag.

Interestingly i have had ice divers tell me that knifes are not allowed by their training agency for ice diving. what is your procedure to deal
with getting snagged to fishing lure and line? have to cut it right!. what would you then do if that mono line was stainless wire line? ...this has already happened to me... the solution. no knife will cut multiple layers of stainless wire. you have to have a cheep dive scissor with. it is the only thing that will cut stainless wire if it is a lot of it. I’m talking about a handful of stainless wire and hooks! I had what I deemed an exceptional professional rescue knife of the sorts used to cut seatbelts and 1inch thick poly rope like butter. This was instantly and permanently dull just from touching the stainless wire!

What about Directional diver locators? They are currently made, and could add another level of safety in locating potential lost divers. Surface buddies could track your location.


....just my 2 cents. Very interesting discussion!

 

[oldflounder]

this tetherless diving on a saftey reel i find very interesting technique.

in our main group the group has guys from like 4 or 5 different training agencies. all trained to ice dive differently.

I’m also very interested in hearing about various emergency situations that other ice divers have had....... also would it make sense that the safety procedures be different under different amounts of visibility?

how would you train for an under the ice snagged situation? how to train for the removing of a snagged partner?

Interestingly i have had ice divers tell me that knifes are not allowed by their training agency for ice diving. what is your procedure to deal with getting snagged to fishing lure and line? have to cut it right!. what would you then do if that mono line was stainless wire line? ...this has already happened to me...

I just quoted a part of your post to highlight some talking points........

4 or 5 training agencies all trained to ice dive differently.......I would be interested in hearing those different ways.

Diving in very poor viz.....as I mentioned in an earlier post....there are different reasons to be ice diving. If diving recreational or scientific I think you would be able to pick your days or sites depending upon how good the viz is expected to be any given day from past experience. I think most people dive the same sites multiple times and can predict what the conditions will be. If it is your job and you're doing search/recovery/rescue then you may have no choice and be in 0 viz at times. In this case diving a buddy team might be impossible because of entanglement with 2 tethers wrapping around each other. Also, referencing your snagged comment, this is a very real scenario when a diver is in 0 viz is manuevering around/through a submerged vehicle or object and gets hung up on an unseen protrusion.

No knives for ice divers...I am assuming this is so that they cannot cut the tether if they freak out. I am not sure about this one. Part of me wants to say "it's my life, let me make that decision." Maybe the rescue divers can't get to me for some reason and I want at least a fighting chance to make one last attempt before I die on my tank's last few psi of air.

I carry a medium weight pair of wire cutters from the hardware store in a bc pocket along with my shears for netting. It's big enough to cut through fish hooks I might encounter locally. In the ocean along shore these can be pretty big. Usually the lines also have a few feet of steel leader which the knives are useless on. The hooks are usually smaller in the lakes/ponds but still might require a wire cutter if they get embedded in your suit or you.

In reference to ice diving in different ways.......This winter I have been going to the same place each weekend laying out underwater guidelines along the bottom to use as a training area next winter and also to give me an idea of where I am when I am down there other seasons. I will be putting cave line arrows on them eventually to help know which direction to go to safety if a diver becomes separated from the tether. I have been marking out an outer safety perimeter with them and also marking up between different landmarks inside that area. I had been using strong cord such as parachute cord, jute, etc. but I have recently pulled those lines and replaced them with colored cotton yarn from Walmart. The acylic yarn floats but the cotton sinks and stays near the bottom. I started using this mainly because it is much cheaper to buy but it also can be broken by hand which is much better for the diver and the fishermen that might snag it if they are bottom fishing. I will leave it under all summer and see if it rots or not. I have used the parachute line before in the ocean and lake bottoms and it has lasted at least a couple years so far.

 

[popolarbear]

I carry a medium weight pair of wire cutters
are these stainless? i had for a short time taken regular cutters but they rusted up.not a bad idea. might have to borrow that.

as I mentioned in an earlier post....there are different reasons to be ice diving. If diving recreational or scientific I think you would be able to pick your days or sites depending upon how good the viz

in my case we are doing a few different goals. at one point our local groups were having an anchor challenge to find the most anchors. this can only be accomplished by
covering a lot of new areas.in this case areas with good vis, had less anchors due to high previous diver trafic.
I also am interested in understanding fish populations and finding new interesting fish spots. In one case I stumbled on a great fishing spot. came back and fished in a spot
i never previously new about. several other people noticed, and started fishing it also. during the course of the next 6 weeks. hundreds of fish were removed. now forward to the next year. there is a fraction of the fish remaining in a spot that you could fish 6 people with non stop action.(sorry got side tracked).
Thus most of the diving we do is in new "Virgin" holes. the exception is returning to exceptional sites, in particular large wrecks.

Interestingly i find many of our lakes have a high fish population which stir up the vis in the shallows after freeze up. in deeper depths you have clear water but soft silty bottom. so in some ways most of the hard bottom "fishy" spots could expect and be happy to find lower vis.


"4 or 5 training agencies all trained to ice dive differently.......I would be interested in hearing those different ways. "
the biggest difference was signals,the no knife thing, but i have had people tell me that non-divers and kids should not be present as it is too dangerous on the ice. in minnesota people live on the ice in winter in multi-level heated ice houses! id bet my kids have more time on the water(or ice) than many ice divers. now i find interesting
comparisons on this forum about using drysuit for bouyancy vs bc. and deeper ice diving techniques. which vary from our local diving.


I like the idea of taking advantage of ice to "set up" the dive site for future visits.

 

[oldflounder]

I carry a medium weight pair of wire cutters
are these stainless? i had for a short time taken regular cutters but they rusted up.not a bad idea. might have to borrow that.

I like the idea of taking advantage of ice to "set up" the dive site for future visits.

I had a pair of SS sheathed wire cutters originally but lost them on top of the Spiegal Grove in 140' of water. So when I got home I just bought a pair of cheap cast iron wire cutters in Lowe's and have been using them for 2 years in the ocean. I just wash/dry/oil them after every dive and have had minimum rusting. They are stuck away out of site in my bcd pocket.


When there is no boat traffic is a good time to set up your dive sites if you have some you dive frequently in the winter. That way if something goes south you may have a better chance of avoiding panic and staying inside your dive zone until help arrives.


I use breakable orange yarn suspended about 4" above the silt by these little 1/8" wire sign posts I buy in Lowe's. They are about 16" long and have 2 loops near the top. One is at the top and one is 4" lower. I shove the post down into the silt to the first loop. When I clip the yarn into the top post it is about 4" off the bottom and easily visible from above depending upon viz.