How much BC lift do I require?

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Originally posted by SunshineFish
Hi all - I've got a question about selecting a BC....

I've noticed that most BCs my size (XS) like the Genesis Athena or Seaquest Diva only offer about 18-25 lbs of lift. This would be okay if I were diving in tropical waters on vacation. With a 3 mil shorty, I've been using 6 lbs of weight. But what if I wanted to go diving around my hometown of NY? With a 7 mil fullsuit and jacket, hood, gloves, and extra weight - Is 18-25 lbs enough?

What is the formula (if there is one) to determine sufficient BC lift?

Sandy

Look at it this way. The heaviest you'll be during a dive is at the beginning (full tank(s)) and deepest (maximum wet suit compression). The lightest you'll be is at the end of a dive (near-empty tank(s)) and at 10 or 15 feet for a mandatory or safety hang (minimum wet suit compression). If you want to be able to be neutral at any point in the dive, your BC will have to make up the difference between heaviest and lightest.

It may also be very desirable to have additional flotation available to be comfortable on the surface, but this is usually necessary only at the end of a dive when, if carrying minimal weight, all the BC buoyancy is available.

I've never asked myself your question, so I don't know how much buoyancy is needed. I do know, though, that a single Al 80 contains about 6 pounds of air, so your BC must provide at least that much buoyancy. However, I don't know how much wet suit compression accounts for.

My GUESS is that 18-25 pounds is enough, but that clearly depends upon carrying only a single tank and wet suit compression being no more than 12 pounds in buoyancy.
 
Originally posted by Campana
Now if you are wearing a huge steel tank, that's different.
Different b/c with steel I would need less weight?

Campana and donacheson - thanks for your help!
 
The last two seasons I've been diving here in NY with a full 7mm suit (1 piece) with an AL80 and 24lbs of lead. I've used my Seaquest Quickdraw with no problems (Love the weight system! ... same as the Diva I think). When I switched to the drysuit, I needed to add more weight (I think to 28 or 30lbs) and it was still fairly sufficient (read: barely). I decided to upgrade to a Ranger (first dive on Sunday!) because the Seaquest was a little tight around the middle, and I really did need more lift. Now, I am one of those negatively buoyant people - throw me in a pool, I sink (made teaching swimming lessons interesting!). I am not really sure what the lift on the Quickdraw is, but I would imagine it's somewhere near 20lbs. To answer your question about tank weighting, steel tanks or negative at the start, and negative at the end, where Al tanks are negative at the start, but positive at the end. With the steel tanks, you can take some weight off your belt because it won't float on you at the end of the dive. I thin AL tanks are -4 start and +2 end, and steel 80's are -6 start and -4 end... I think. I have an ancient steel 72... from about 1957 with an old gas valve on it. I like it because of it's size, not necessarily about the weight. It's also cool to dive with a tank that is more then twice my age! hey, one of my assistants gave to me for free, and it passed the hydro and visual! cm
 
How does one figure out the maximum amount of bouyant lift capacity that one is likely to need?

This has bearing on which BC you getm right?
 
Someone will be able to answer this better, but basically add up the amount of weight you carry, plus the in-water bouyancy of a full tank of gas.

eg. I have the following:

6lb backplate
5lb single tank adapter
10lb lead weights
10lb negative bouyancy 95 LP steel tank when full
-----
31lb weight

So my 36lb wing is about right (allowing for some redundancy). You really never want to be inflating your BC fully anyway underwater, so slightly larger is okay.

Ben
 
Originally posted by bengiddins
Someone will be able to answer this better, but basically add up the amount of weight you carry, plus the in-water bouyancy of a full tank of gas.

eg. I have the following:

6lb backplate
5lb single tank adapter
10lb lead weights
10lb negative bouyancy 95 LP steel tank when full
-----
31lb weight

So my 36lb wing is about right (allowing for some redundancy). You really never want to be inflating your BC fully anyway underwater, so slightly larger is okay.

Ben


Hmmm --

My problem is that I don't yet own a BC, so I don't kinow what positive and negatives it will have.

But on the other hand, I need to be able to figure out the maximum I will need so I can figure out which BC to get. Sounds like a catch 22?!

I am a newbie, so I don't really know much about the weights involved. I have done a total of 12 dives. The last 5 were in January in Cozumel. I wore a .5mm compressed neoprene ScubaPro silverskin titanium diveskin (maybe 2 lbs of bouyancy?). In a morning bouyancy check, we determined that I needed 16 lbs. of wieghts. But that afternoon, I couldn't get down with 16 -- had to add 2 more, and even then I was light during the safety stop. I ended up using 20 lbs, but had to add air to my BC, at least at the beginning of the dive.

So does this give any clues about the bouyant lift capacity I need when I purchase a BC?
 
The answer to buoyancy issues is simply to be neutral in the water at all times. In other words you want to displace as much mass of water as you mass. Regrettably this is much simpler to say than to do.

Your buoyancy has several components. Some of the buoyancy components change as the dive progresses and you descend and ascend in the water column. The BC has to offset only these CHANGES in the buoyancy of you and your gear from the start of the dive at the surface throughout the dive and back to the surface. The best way to get a feel for what these are is to list them by type.

The first thing to do is determine your "residual" buoyancy. Fat along with lung and sinus cavities float, muscle and bone skink. The mix of those components in YOUR body will determine your residual buoyancy. Almost all women and a large percentage of men float to some extent. Women who don't have at least _some_ fat on them simply don't look like women, and the ladies tend to have smaller bone and muscle structure. As a result most ladies will float to some extent. Men are all over the spectrum. Take you and swimming suit to a pool and determine how much lead or air it takes to make you neutral with lungs inflated to the middle to middle top range of your normal tidal volume. This is your "base load" that everything else you take into the water either adds to or detracts from. Also please be aware that this base load changes slowly over time. As an example, 30+ years ago when I was in engineering school I was diving one or more tanks every day to catch lunch, measured 6' tall, weighed 135# soaking wet, with a base load of about 5 pounds negative in seawater. Now 30+ years and about 100 pounds later I'm still 6' tall, but the base load has changed to about 7 pounds positive in seawater. I lost much of the big "jet fin" leg muscles, and added fat everywhere, so my base load reflects that change

The next biggest non-reversing item in your buoyancy calculation increases in buoyancy throughout the dive. This is your decreasing "gas load", or the mass of the air or other breathing mix in your tank(s) that is consumed at a relatively constant rate throughout the dive, with due consideration to the increased use rate due to the compression of the gas volume inhaled as depth increases. If you are talking just "sport" diving with an 80 cubic foot tank this buoyancy change is in the range of 6.5 to 8 pounds, assuming you plan on coming up with around 500psi. Note that this change is independent of the tank construction. Tech and deep penetration cave divers with larger gas loads may have up to 50 pound of "expendable" gas in several back gas bottles and decompression stage bottles. You need to determine the maximum amount of gas you intend to use with a particular setup to determine this gas load swing buoyancy for your type of diving. Add that amount of positive buoyancy to your "base load". You'll need to add lead or other negative components to your rig to offset this buoyancy change to remain neutral at the deco end of your dive.

The next biggie effecting BC size for most folks is the changes to the displacement of your exposure suit. This is not a major item for those diving in t-shirts and shorts, or for most of those diving in dry suits. For the rest of us diving in wetsuits this can be pretty drastic. When planning for BC size you need to assume your suit looses ALL buoyancy to suit compression at depth. Closed cell neoprene will not normally go negative due to compression at normal open circuit SCUBA depths, so that side of the swing is not necessary to compute. To determine the maximum possible change in your exposure suit buoyancy you need to determine the near surface buoyancy of the suit. This can be done in a pool with a mesh bag and a weight belt with multiple small weights on it. Take the bag into the pool empty, and then add the suit to the bag underwater, being sure not to trap air in the suit as you put it into the bag. Tie the bag to the end of the belt, and see what amount of lead comes off the bottom with the suit and bag still fully submerged. This is the net positive buoyancy of the suit at the surface. You need to add this amount of negative buoyancy to your base load, since you'll be wearing lead or other negative gear to counteract this at the deco end of your dive.

Other things that can change your base load during the course of the dive. One is the escape of air trapped in your wetsuit suit when you first put it on. Another is the escape of, or development of, methane in the gut. Avoiding chili, bratwurst & kraut, bean soup and other methane producers before diving is the simple solution to that one. One common with "branded" BCs is the trapping of air in the BC outer bag between the BC bladder and the case. This air will work out of the case during the dive, yielding a more negative result at the end of the dive than would otherwise be expected.

Picking the rest of your gear wisely, taking into account your base load and buoyancy "live loads", can minimize the lift required for your BC. In any case you need enough lift to enable you, at the first of your dive with the maximum possible negative "live load", to swim up to the surface from the maximum dive depth POSSIBLE in your area. IOW If the bottom of the wall you dive is at 230' you had better be able to swim up from THERE, even if you never intend to get that deep! The world occasionally turns brown, so it's best to have the gear setup to handle it. The difference in cost is minimal, but the difference in result can be huge. There have been several instances where people have drowned from not being able to swim their rig to the surface.

All other things being equal choosing the rest of the gear you carry is "simply" an exercise in minimizing the amount of lead you need by judicious selection of the rest of your gear. (Talk about an understatement!) Most steel tanks, lights, knives, shears, most BC components, most fins, etc are negative or neutral. If you need weight at all times, pick the most negative choices. If you are naturally negative, go for the lighter versions with aluminum tanks. If diving in warm water you may want to select a tank that counteracts your base load so all you need to deal with by BC flotation is your minimal exposure suit changes and changing gas load. This could be as small as a 10 pounds of flotation, or as high as 40 pounds. In any case going at it in stages and figuring out what each component of your buoyancy equation is in relation the "final answer" is both the best way to learn how this all interacts, and to see how you can set your gear up the best way FOR YOU and your diving plans.

I use my BC for other things besides buoyancy compensation quite often so I like a BC WAY oversize by these calculations. This is NOT suggested by most instructors, but then again most instructors have never tried to turn an over 7' long speared AJ heading to the bottom in 800+' of water... They have their agenda; I have mine.

FT
 
Originally posted by FredT
The answer to buoyancy issues is simply to be neutral in the water at all times. In other words you want to displace as much mass of water as you mass. Regrettably this is much simpler to say than to do.


FT

WOW! What an articulate and knowledgable answer!

My fins are (unfortunately) slightly positive. I really don't know what types of exposure suits I may need in the future. So far, I've only needed a skin. I, myself alone in fresh water -- and even more in salt water - float in just a swimming suit -- probably normal for an overweight middle aged female.

I read in Rodale's that water temperature is the main determinant of the amount of bouyant capacity one needs in a BC -- is that true or not?

I never plan to dive deeper than 130 feet at the most. What is a 7' AJ? A type of fish? 800 feet??? I didn't know it was possible to dive that deep with SCUBA equipment -- do you do this for sport or for a living?

Since I really can't predict what type of diving I will be doing a couple years from now, how do I decide how much lift capacity to go for? Right now, I don't visualize going deeper than 100 feet or so, and in tropical waters. Usually my problem is more getting down than getting up. I think I'd have even more problem if I wore a thicker wet suit -- which would mean LESS lift capacity needed, right? I suppose that someone might talk me into diving a wreck off of N. Carolina at 130' in temperate water, but that would be about my max. limit.

I never plan to buy my own tank. I always will be renting one -- another unknown.

Is there a downside to getting a BC with too MUCH lift capacity? Is something like a Seaquest DIVA with 24 lbs lift capacity going to be too little if I normally need 20 lbs of lead with just a diveskin in salt water?

Ugh -- too many unknowns.

Thanks for your help, though.
 
Doc....
Save yourself a headache and don't try to buy the BC that will last you for the rest of your life.

Just buy a BC and go diving.... if it doesn't fit your needs sell it on ebay and get a different one....

As you develop in your diving you might find your diving interests changing .... and your equipment needs changing too.
 
Originally posted by DivingDoc


I read in Rodale's that water temperature is the main determinant of the amount of bouyant capacity one needs in a BC -- is that true or not?


Actually not quite. The heavy _exposure_suit_ (read "wetsuit" as drysuits work by different rules) needed in cold water, and the resultant increase in possible buoyancy swing due to suit compression is what drives a larger BC flotation capacity. A heavier suit floats better at the surface, and so the loss in suit buoyancy at depth due to compression is larger. The bigger that swing the more lead you need to offset it, thus the larger the BC needs to be to lift the added lead when the suit is compressed.

Originally posted by DivingDoc

I never plan to dive deeper than 130 feet at the most. What is a 7' AJ? A type of fish? 800 feet??? I didn't know it was possible to dive that deep with SCUBA equipment -- do you do this for sport or for a living?

An AJ is an Amberjack. A big strong fish that is good eating in the Gulf of Mexico, but not so much so off the east coast of the US due to increased worminess of the species on the east coast. I was trying to turn it because I didn't _want_ to go to 800' on open circuit. To do so is generally a one way trip. Given an opportunity to go there with a surface supplied commercial saturation rig with heliox or hydrox and a suitable surface support crew is fine with me, but nothing I'm going to be able to carry on my back is going to make it that deep and bring me back. This fish hunting is "recreational diving," cajun style.

Originally posted by DivingDoc


I think I'd have even more problem if I wore a thicker wet suit -- which would mean LESS lift capacity needed, right?

Nope, see above. Thicker suit = more lead =bigger BC bag needed.

How much it takes to get JUST YOU down falls out in the wash. If it takes 16 pounds negative to sink JUST YOU, that ballast is constant. It has no bearing on the size of BC bladder you need!The BC bag has to address the CHANGE in ballast needs during the dive. I expect the extra weight you needed in Coz is partially due to air trapped in the BC between bladder and sheath. It takes a while to get used to getting rid of that "extra" air, and some divers never do learn that trick, they just keep adding lead. The goal when diving in "skin" is to have a maximum of 1 gallon of air in your BC at the start of the dive to counter act your gas load, and NONE at the end of the dive. You don't have to futz with a BC much if you never put much air into it. ":)"

If all you are doing is warm water stuff, ballast YOU alone correctly, then get a single bag (no "liner") BC with no chance of trapping air between two bags. A backplate system would allow you to move much of the weight to ballast you off your waist and onto your back where it needs to be, while allowing more freedom of movement and less "binding" across the chest. Properly ballasted you should be able to get away with a BC with 20 pounds of lift or less if diving without a wetsuit. With a suit you need to add the suit buoyancy to that mix.


Originally posted by DivingDoc

Is there a downside to getting a BC with too MUCH lift capacity? Is something like a Seaquest DIVA with 24 lbs lift capacity going to be too little if I normally need 20 lbs of lead with just a diveskin in salt water?

Ugh -- too many unknowns.

The downside to too big a BC is more drag for you to be swimming through the water, so your air consumption rate remains higher than it could be. Other than that, no problems.

BTW The way to deal with ANY collection of unknowns is to take each one individually, and turn IT into a "known" one at a time. Eventually you run out of unknowns to deal with.:eek:uttahere

FT
 

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