How happy are you with today's level of Diver Education?

[Thalassamania]

If you add to that a self rescue and a buddy rescue topic than I have no problem with the broad-bush list, but like many things the devil is in the details ... e.g., does "Proper Weighting" include displaying good buoyancy and trim?

 

[The Chairman]

From Page 2:

Open water certification qualifies a certified diver to procure air, equipment, and other services
and engage in recreational open water diving without supervision. It is the intent of this standard
that certified open water divers shall have received training in the fundamentals of recreational
diving from an instructor (see definition). A certified open water diver is qualified to apply the
knowledge and skills outlined in this standard to plan, conduct, and log open-water, no-required
decompression dives when properly equipped, and accompanied by another certified diver.

 

[Diver0001]

Do you think it's only a matter of perspective then?

One instructor sees the ocean as half full of great divers while the another instructor sees the ocean as half empty of crappy divers? I'm just askin'.

Well... not entirely.

I'm one of the "unlucky" ones that has had to mount a full-scale rescue of a diver and believe me when I say that it makes a HUGE impression on you....

Without going into too many details, the diver we rescued could have been trained better and his accident could probably have been avoided all together....

but my dive team BLEW ME AWAY. It's hard to even imagine a group of divers who could mount and execute a rescue as quickly, as efficiently and as effectively as we did that day.... just a bunch of PADI trained boobs... By any measure it was outstanding.

That's not to pound my own chest because all I did is get the EMS onsite and ready to go. My dive team did the hard stuff..... but my point being that *we* came out of the same system that some say is only able to create "incompetent idiots"

I would dispute that based on personal experience.

I would suggest taht there are some outSTANDing divers who are a product of taht system.

That's not to say that there are no issues... just that some people (we'll call them pessimists) see NOTHING but issues, which does not conform to reality.

R..

 

[The Chairman]

If you add to that a self rescue and a buddy rescue topic than I have no problem with the broad-bush list, but like many things the devil is in the details ... e.g., does "Proper Weighting" include displaying good buoyancy and trim?

Also from Page 2:

The requirements of this standard are meant to be comprehensive, but general in nature. That is, the standard presents all the subject areas essential for open water scuba certification, but it does not give a detailed listing of the skills and information encompassed by each area.

 

[Thalassamania]

From Page 2:

Open water certification qualifies a certified diver to procure air, equipment, and other services
and engage in recreational open water diving without supervision. It is the intent of this standard
that certified open water divers shall have received training in the fundamentals of recreational
diving from an instructor (see definition). A certified open water diver is qualified to apply the
knowledge and skills outlined in this standard to plan, conduct, and log open-water, no-required
decompression dives when properly equipped, and accompanied by another certified diver.

I believe in that, but clearly as far as the RSTC and most of the agencies are concerned it's just window dressing.

... I would suggest taht there are some outSTANDing divers who are a product of taht system.

Or perhaps, there are some outstanding divers who are outstanding despite that system?

Also from Page 2:

The requirements of this standard are meant to be comprehensive, but general in nature. That is, the standard presents all the subject areas essential for open water scuba certification, but it does not give a detailed listing of the skills and information encompassed by each area.

Now doesn't that just obfuscate everything?

 

[The Chairman]

I believe in that, but clearly as far as the RSTC and most of the agencies are concerned it's just window dressing.

Perhaps it's an execution issue, Thal? Economic factors have been plaguing dive shops and instructors for years! Not too long ago, the dive shop almost gave away instruction to be able to sell gear. The advent of the internet has changed that, and now they are having to make a paradigm shift in how they make money. YOU don't have that problem and can afford to over look it.

Rather than vilify the shops and instructors, maybe we should see what can be done to increase the cost of dive training and reduce the need for shops to take short cuts.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Here is the WRTC's skill set:

4.9 Open Water Scuba Skills. These open water scuba skills are to be performed while
diving in the open water, wearing a minimum instructional scuba diving system.

1. Diving system assembly and disassembly (at water's edge)
2. Equipment inspection (at water's edge)
3. Entries and exits
4. Proper Weighting
5. Mouthpiece clearing – snorkel and regulator
6. Regulator/snorkel exchanges at the surface
7. Controlled descents and ascents
8. Underwater swimming
9. Mask-clearing
10. Buddy-system techniques
11. Underwater and surface buoyancy control
12. Diver assistance techniques (self/buddy)
13. Surface-snorkel swimming with full diving system
14. Removal and replacement of weight/ballast system
15. Removal and replacement of scuba system
16. Out-of-air emergency alternatives
17. Equipment care and maintenance (at water's edge)
18. Underwater navigation

You can find the whole document here: OpenWaterDiver.zip

Thanks for the link Pete. Now, why do they not specify what constitutes buoyancy control, or even reference horizontal trim and being able to demonstrate these in midwater? Or provide some reference for just what "buddy system techniques" means. In most of the OW classes I observed and assisted with until I switched agencies the buddy system was talked about and referenced but seldom if ever put into practice. It might as well say "same ocean/same time= dive buddy".

I'm currently looking at this and preparing a presentation and paper on the buddy system now and how the failure to stress and require it in OW classes has led to a number of deaths this year alone. What the RSTC requirements are as I read the document are not really requirements since the definitions of many of these areas are left to very broad interpretations by whoever is using them. It even states that in the opening paragraphs.

The company I work for in real life is a member of a number of standards organizations and subscribes to those standards. The difference is that those are standards, not general guidelines like the RSTC. When I do an inspection of a part and prepare the report the standards are very specific as to what measurement techniques I need to use, what tolerances are acceptable, how the report is to be filled out, and the info required. This is the same for any manufacturer who makes that part. For some jobs the details are specific as to what type of paper is required! I cannot take that part and measure it in any way other than what is spec'd. If I do, the report and part are rejected. When things are left open to interpretations as broadly as the RSTC standards are they are not in fact standards. They are a set of general guidelines with one purpose. To keep another regulatory body( read gov't) from stepping in and really screwing things up.

The RSTC is mistakenly believed to have been set up to benefit divers. and that may have been true at one time for a brief period. Truth is it is now actually set up for the benefit (financial that is) of the members. Diver competence is an afterthought at best. Diver safety is not much ahead of that as evidenced by the loose interpretations of the so called "standards" allowed by the standards themselves.

 

[Thalassamania]

Ain't it the truth... but in this case you can blame the agency!

There seems to be a severe disconnect here... we have all seen crappy divers, but we disagree on what needs to be fixed:

• Students
• Instructors
• Agencies
• RSTC

Sounds like the beginning of a poll!

• Students - naw, good instructors are still producing good students.
• Instructors - yes
• Agencies - yes
• RSTC - yes

 

[The Chairman]

Truth is it is now actually set up for the benefit (financial that is) of the members. Diver competence is an afterthought at best. Diver safety is not much ahead of that as evidenced by the loose interpretations of the so called "standards" allowed by the standards themselves.

I don't accept your interpretation Jim. If their effort was purely financial, then why are so many Dive Shops closing their doors? Again, if your impetus is to merely vilify them for whatever reason, then you are succeeding. Personally, I would rather identify and help fix the problem.

I see the real issue as an economic one caused by the paradigm shift of shops making more money off of gear not so long ago, to having to make more money off of classes now to meet financial obligations. Part time instructors such as yourself, who do not make the bulk of their living off of teaching students, have a hard time accepting this fiscal reality. The local dive shops are hurting and this has less to do with greed as it does with the changing realities of the dive industry. Classes need to cost the student more so that the instructor does not feel driven to push as many through as they can. unfortunately, they have been under priced for so long, that it's hard to get consumers to pay the difference. It's a catch 22 that we find ourselves in.

 

[*dave*]

The more I consider it, the more I believe it comes down to the instructor for the best hope of improving the situation.

Pete mentioned earlier that raising standards wouldn't help instructors who were not meeting them as they stand now. He's right.... He also pointed out various ways instructors can waste time in another tread. I've seen these things, too. There are a lot of crappy instructors out there.

We really need to address agency standards for professionals. Take care of those and the courses will fall in line. There will be a lot of culls, but that will drive up demand for those who make the cut. Theoretically, demand should drive the price and perhaps instruction could once again become a viable product instead of the loss leader for gear sales it is now.