stevead:
I agree, This is the best response I have seen yet and let me add Divers have to be responsible for their own actions, I can`t say that enuff, I mean if you wreck your car do you blame the DMV because they gave you a license.
How do you feel about PADI bashing on this thread??
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I agree, This is the best response I have seen yet and let me add Divers have to be responsible for their own actions, I can`t say that enuff, I mean if you wreck your car do you blame the DMV because they gave you a license.
Diver-Sixx:
I remember being in the shop once and a student came in to complain about never receiving their OW card from about 2 years before. I had sat thru part of that class and remembered the person and the student remembered me. The student complained when told the card was in the shop saying they were never told they had to come pick it up. The student was also complaining that the instructor never taught how to use the dive tables, not a single word was ever said about the tables. And the student felt it was wrong that tables were not covered, this person had talked to other divers and now knew how important the tables were. The student wanted to file a complaint about both of these items; talk to somebody important! Instead I talked to the student. Another case of a bad instructor right!!! After all the student said so.
To make the story short. I showed student the bound test and the student verified that yes that was the test they took. I even planned on pulling the actual answer sheet used. They even remembered several questions on the first couple of pages. The person told me their test score was a specific score in the upper 90's; I looked it up later and they remembered the score correctly. But anyway, I showed the student the table questions (10) and asked how did they score so high and miss so many questions. I could tell they recognized the questions at that point and the student even admitted it. And the student admitted that now "yes I remember them now". I apologized that the c-cards were never picked up and why hadn't the student called afterwards? Answer was "did not need it until now, had temp card for trip right after certification".
The reason I went thru checking the test to see if the student had done poorly on the test and I could not remember sitting through the table lectures. I could remember the instructor at the pool sessions and checkouts saying the students needed to pick up their C-cards. I also had read plenty of stories on this board about bad instructors and had the opportunity to satisfy my curiosity on an example of how accurate the stories might be!
So now I read the stories with a more open mind realizing the stories are just one side of the story. Also, it is often influenced by stress and task loading from an unfamiliar topic, which can dramatically affect the accuracy of the recollection.
Thanks for listening!
Originally Posted by stevead
Many people want to blame less than competent divers on the agency, more reasonable folks say there are good instructors and bad instructors in any agency, what I haven't seen is anyone who places the responsibility on the divers themselves. I have been teaching for 16 years and in that time I have trained some great divers and some that I have refused to certify. but not one of them finished the ow class as a great diver. being great takes time and practice. any adequate diver who chooses to practice can improve. what stuns me is how many people refuse to admit their own lack of greatness.
But see, that's why it's a good idea to read the training standards before getting into a conversation like this. Saying it's the instructor or the student and not the agency makes sense to a degree. Until we actually read the standards and see what is and isn't required of both the instructor and the student. When we see that the instructors are teaching what the standards require and the student is doing exactly what the standards require of them...then we start to see what's lacking.
For example. Would you agree that a lot of new divers have trouble with buoyancy control? Lets look at PADI standards. Standards require fin pivots...they're still on the bottom. They require a 30 second hover. They require a 30 ft neutral swim. Later in OW, they are required to get neutral at some point (in place of a timed hover). So, we see that the student is only required to be off the bottom for what?...maybe a minute total? They can kneel and crawl the rest of the time and the instructor can, and in fact per agency standards, certify them. I agree that buoyancy control takes some practice. Not as much as some people think but a minute sure isn't enough. Sorry this is a standards problem.
Lets look at another aspect of that same skill problem. You know how hard it is to get a handle on your buoyancy control when your weighting and trim is way off? Well the whole concept of trim isn't even mentioned anyplace in the course materials and getting trimmed isn't required. Not only that but it isn't taught or required in any course all the way up tp instructor training so there is a good chance that the instructor doesn't know enough about it to teach it. Now you have a head up strugling diver who has no idea what to do to fix it and the it's going to take them a VERY long time to improve at all if they even stick with it that long.
We could go on and on. Divers have trouble with good ascents and descents. All we need to do is look at how standards dictate they be taught to see why.
Nope, these are standards problems and the only one who is responsible for those standards is the agency. Once you have good standards, now you need a good instructor and a good student but, if the standards aren't any good, you may as well just stop there and forget the whole thing.
Get a copy, read them and think about what you really need to know to dive well as you do.
Many people want to blame less than competent divers on the agency, more reasonable folks say there are good instructors and bad instructors in any agency, what I haven't seen is anyone who places the responsibility on the divers themselves. I have been teaching for 16 years and in that time I have trained some great divers and some that I have refused to certify. but not one of them finished the ow class as a great diver. being great takes time and practice. any adequate diver who chooses to practice can improve. what stuns me is how many people refuse to admit their own lack of greatness.
Diver-Sixx:
But see, that's why it's a good idea to read the training standards before getting into a conversation like this. Saying it's the instructor or the student and not the agency makes sense to a degree. Until we actually read the standards and see what is and isn't required of both the instructor and the student. When we see that the instructors are teaching what the standards require and the student is doing exactly what the standards require of them...then we start to see what's lacking.
For example. Would you agree that a lot of new divers have trouble with buoyancy control? Lets look at PADI standards. Standards require fin pivots...they're still on the bottom. They require a 30 second hover. They require a 30 ft neutral swim. Later in OW, they are required to get neutral at some point (in place of a timed hover). So, we see that the student is only required to be off the bottom for what?...maybe a minute total? They can kneel and crawl the rest of the time and the instructor can, and in fact per agency standards, certify them. I agree that buoyancy control takes some practice. Not as much as some people think but a minute sure isn't enough. Sorry this is a standards problem.
Lets look at another aspect of that same skill problem. You know how hard it is to get a handle on your buoyancy control when your weighting and trim is way off? Well the whole concept of trim isn't even mentioned anyplace in the course materials and getting trimmed isn't required. Not only that but it isn't taught or required in any course all the way up tp instructor training so there is a good chance that the instructor doesn't know enough about it to teach it. Now you have a head up strugling diver who has no idea what to do to fix it and the it's going to take them a VERY long time to improve at all if they even stick with it that long.
We could go on and on. Divers have trouble with good ascents and descents. All we need to do is look at how standards dictate they be taught to see why.
Nope, these are standards problems and the only one who is responsible for those standards is the agency. Once you have good standards, now you need a good instructor and a good student but, if the standards aren't any good, you may as well just stop there and forget the whole thing.
Get a copy, read them and think about what you really need to know to dive well as you do.
Actually, according to my 2006 PADI Instructor Manual, trim is discussed in Knowledge Development Section 2, in the Streamline Yourself section. It states that you need to move horizontally thru the water, and that the instructor is to discuss trim, placement of weight for a comfortable, balanced, horizontal position.
And let's talk about hovering. True, the 30 second hover is in Confined Water Dive 4, but the instructor can substitute the hover in place of the fin pivot in Open Water Dive 2 and 3. And there is no time limit on the hover in Open Water Dive 4.
And let's talk about hovering. True, the 30 second hover is in Confined Water Dive 4, but the instructor can substitute the hover in place of the fin pivot in Open Water Dive 2 and 3. And there is no time limit on the hover in Open Water Dive 4.
ScubaRandy:
Well said!
I guess some peoples facts come out of their own heads! Perhaps some people should update themselves on PADI standards before passing themselves as experts on the standards.
Here are some things taken from the Instructor Manual to help those who think they know better.
Talking about Dive 1
To develop the practical application of the essential skills of diving — those used in
making any dive, such as good judgment, buoyancy control, underwater awareness,
ascents and descents, etc. — by having student divers make a dive much as
they will after certification.
Underwater exploration. This is the heart of Open Water Dive 1. Although to the experienced diver it is “just swimming around,” the novice is learning and assimilating a great deal, such as buoyancy control, body attitude, buddy contact, communication, breathing and dozens of other underwater capabilities that experienced divers find second nature.
(Isn't body attitude the same as trim?)
As described for all subsequent dives
Underwater exploration (“tour”
. Continues developing student underwater skill as described in Open Water Dive 1.(Doesn't this mean that PADI wants trim, buoyancy control, buddy contact etc to be used in all 4 dives. There are ascents and descents in dives 1 - 4 so buddy contact would be included in the ascents and descents.)
From Dive 2
The emphasis during ascent is on maintaining buoyancy control, maintaining a proper ascent rate and maintaining buddy contact.
(The standards seem pretty clear here. Maintain buddy contact on ascent.)
From Dive 4 about descents
Students now have several descent experiences and have a feel for buoyancy control. Brief students to use their depth gauges, how often they need to equalize, particles in the water, etc. to gauge and control their descent rate.
One technique is to use a reference line, but have the buddy team face away from it. This gives a control method while meeting the performance requirement. Tell student divers that you will stay with them during the descent and they are setting the descent rate. This makes them control the rate rather than merely match yours.
(So I see that PADI requires students to maintain buddy contact on ascent and descent. Buddy team implies they should be together otherwsie they aren't a team.)
And just a couple more snippets regarding buoyancy
Student divers should be demonstrating near-automatic buoyancy control, staying off the bottom, and being constantly aware of their buoyancy.
Neutral buoyancy and hovering. This exercise has no time limit because you’re looking for mastery.
From Peak Performance Buoyancy
Position and distribute the weight for comfort and desired body
position (trim) in the water.
While swimming, adjust for neutral buoyancy; concentrate on an efficient,
relaxed kicking style; practice gliding after kicks; and streamline your body/equipment as much as possible.
(So PADI does talk about trim in another course.)
drew52:
Not from my own head...from the PADI standards but I don't have 2006 standards so thanks for posting this.
All this you posted below is good. Can you post the bold type performance requirements?
this has been in the standards for a very long time.
How is the student to practice buoyancy control on dive one when dive one may be conducten immediately after CW 1 and buoyancy control isn't iontroduced until CW 3? Did they change that too?
again, how about posting the "bold" performance requirements for dive 1.
I would say so. Just explain to me what the student has done in the classroom or CW to this point to enable them to do it.
As described for all subsequent dives
Underwater exploration (“tour”
(Doesn't this mean that PADI wants trim, buoyancy control, buddy contact etc to be used in all 4 dives. There are ascents and descents in dives 1 - 4 so buddy contact would be included in the ascents and descents.)
Again, give us the bold type performance requirements.
This is a welcome addition and it is new.
edit, sorry I made a mistake. What you are quoting is from the recommended sequence and not from requirements. You have to be able to see the difference.
More very welcome changes in wording and if the actual performance requirements reflect these additions, I for one will jump for joy.
Edit: Sorry. Again I see where you're quoting from. Skip the old recommended techniques. What we want to look at are REQUIREMENTS!
If the performance requirements reflect the wording that you've posted and instructors actually teach that way, there will be NO need for a PPB class.
No kidding. If the new standards really apply these changes in a meaningful way, it is fantastic news. I'll even try not to say "I told you so" because so many of us have been harping for changes like these for a very long time. ooops, I guess I already said it. Maybe they finally heard some of it.
Edit: I guess, from where you're quoting I don't see anything different. We need to look at what's required.
Did they re-work the text and the video too?
Did they add any midwater skills? Being able to replace a mask or manage a free flow while kneeling on the botom is great but midwater is where it needs to be done.
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Them's sweet words, I'm glad to see them in there, but the proof's in the puddin' and it's not happening. All that means is almost every PADI Instructor I see out at any of the local dive sites is outside of standards or thinks that trim means fin tilt and/or hover. We'll have to wait and see how long it takes for the word to get out.drew52:
ScubaRandy:
That just means that they don't have to make the full 30 seconds...which used to be a FULL minute BTW. I always though of a minute as a fairly small time period but I've been wrong before.
The standards should read that any time the student isn't swimming, they should be hovering.
BTW, do you remember when the change came that allowed hovering rather than a fin pivot or why?
Thalassamania:
What drew seems to be mostly quoting is from the recommended procedures for meeting performance requirements. that's all well and good but it's just recommended and not required.
The instructors you see may not be acting in accordance with the "intent" of the standards but they are not actually violating standards.
And if a student is having a problem with a particular exercise, additional help is provided by a DM or AI as required (assuming one is present). Beyond that, the instructor can ADD to the standards as necessary.
The standards need to have minimums. The instructor has to decide if the student has fulfilled the requirements.
It all goes back to the instructor.
The standards need to have minimums. The instructor has to decide if the student has fulfilled the requirements.
It all goes back to the instructor.
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