How do you feel about PADI bashing on this thread??

[Thalassamania]

And if a student is having a problem with a particular exercise, additional help is provided by a DM or AI as required (assuming one is present). Beyond that, the instructor can ADD to the standards as necessary.

The standards need to have minimums. The instructor has to decide if the student has fulfilled the requirements.

It all goes back to the instructor.

I think, that as a minimum, students should be up in the water column and not crawling about or rototilliing the bottom. I also believe that standards should say so in no uncertain terms. Yes, that makes the standards of almost all the agencies inadequate.

 

[MikeFerrara]

And if a student is having a problem with a particular exercise, additional help is provided by a DM or AI as required (assuming one is present). Beyond that, the instructor can ADD to the standards as necessary.

The standards need to have minimums. The instructor has to decide if the student has fulfilled the requirements.

It all goes back to the instructor.

Right. So why do we need the agency again?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think, that as a minimum, students should be up in the water column and not crawling about or rototilliing the bottom. I also believe that standards should say so in no uncertain terms. Yes, that makes the standards of almost all the agencies inadequate.

Yes and I'm waiting for Drew or someone else who has the most recent standards to say whether or not they have added any such performance requirement. So far, it seems to be all from the "recommendations" and that stuff has always been there, though, they had me all excited for a minute. Oh, well, probably too much to hope for.

 

[drew52]

The bold faced text is the performance requirement. This text is the text explaining how to meet these performance requirements.

For me this stuff has always been obvious stuff to teach but I guess for some they need to re-read their instructor manuals and start putting it into practice.

One of the requirements of being a PADI instructor is keeping up to date with the manual/standards. I guess like anything some people do this, some people don't. The people that do are probably the same people that teach good classes, follow other standards and make good instructors. Hence good vs bad instructors from all agencies. I'm one of those people who, upon teaching a particular course for the 1st time that year, reads through the manual sections relevant to the particular course before I teach it. I also, while not professing to teach as thoroughly as some of you guys, like to ensure my students have descent buoyancy, trim and buddy procedures. They may not be perfect at the end of their course but they are definately aware of the areas they need to work on. I will even do extra dives for people if they are not up to standard.

I don't know when these things changed as I only have the 2006 Manual on my PC at present.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The bold faced text is the performance requirement. This text is the text explaining how to meet these performance requirements.

For me this stuff has always been obvious stuff to teach but I guess for some they need to re-read their instructor manuals and start putting it into practice.

Everybody has read them. Some of them also know how to use standards to their financial advantage.

One of the requirements of being a PADI instructor is keeping up to date with the manual/standards. I guess like anything some people do this, some people don't. The people that do are probably the same people that teach good classes, follow other standards and make good instructors. Hence good vs bad instructors from all agencies. I'm one of those people who, upon teaching a particular course for the 1st time that year, reads through the manual sections relevant to the particular course before I teach it. I also, while not professing to teach as thoroughly as some of you guys, like to ensure my students have descent buoyancy, trim and buddy procedures. They may not be perfect at the end of their course but they are definately aware of the areas they need to work on. I will even do extra dives for people if they are not up to standard.

I don't know when these things changed as I only have the 2006 Manual on my PC at present.

So far from what you quoted from the recommended procedures, I don't see much in the way of changes. Recommendations are just that. Not requirements.

If you could, please address some of the questions I asked. Like...Are students required to stay with a buddy on descent or ascent?
Are they required to demonstrate good buoyancy control, propulsion technique and buddy skills during the tour portion of the dive?
Have any midwater skills been added?

I don't mean to be nasty or condescending but some of you newer instructors should get out and watch some classes, see what is really being done and then go back and see whether or not it's within standards.

I remember calling PADI about horrible things I saw thinking they were standards violations only to have PADI tell me it was ok. LOL that's when I started really paying more attention to the bold type and to what is really required.

I would be interested to find out what, and if, anything has really been changed.

 

[drew52]

I would say the recommendations are part of the requirement. They are expanding on what the requirement means in real terms. And helping new instructors understand what the meaning of the requirement actually is.

Here is one example of the boldfaced text for you from Open Water Dive 2.

Requirement:
Using the five point method, ascend at a rate no faster than 18 metres/
60 feet per minute while maintaining buddy contact.

Recommended Techniques for Meeting Performance Requirements:
The emphasis during ascent is on maintaining buoyancy control, maintaining a proper ascent rate and maintaining buddy contact.

 

[drew52]

While some of them may know how to use them to their finacial advantage we can surely see that these people are the difference between the good and the bad. These things are going to be the same no matter what agency these people are teaching for.

 

[Thalassamania]

re·quire·ment [ (rĭ-kwīr'mənt) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. Something that is required; a necessity.
2. Something obligatory; a prerequisite.

rec·om·mend (rěk'ə-měnd') Pronunciation Key
v. rec·om·mend·ed, rec·om·mend·ing, rec·om·mends
v. tr.

1. To praise or commend (one) to another as being worthy or desirable; endorse: recommended him for the job; recommended a car instead of an SUV.
2. To make (the possessor, as of an attribute) attractive or acceptable: Honesty recommends any person.
3. To commit to the charge of another; entrust.
4. To advise or counsel: She recommended that we be on time. See Synonyms at advise.

v. intr.
To give advice or counsel: "recommended against signing an international agreement" (Time).

It seems crystal clear to me. A requirement is something that must, always be done, but that which is recommended may be treated as advice to be followed or ignored at will.

 

[drew52]

Here is one example of the boldfaced text for you from Open Water Dive 2.

Requirement:
Using the five point method, ascend at a rate no faster than 18 metres/
60 feet per minute while maintaining buddy contact.

Recommended Techniques for Meeting Performance Requirements:
The emphasis during ascent is on maintaining buoyancy control, maintaining a proper ascent rate and maintaining buddy contact.

Well there is an example of a requirement that you so called "PADI pros" have claimed do not exist. And these recommendations are still expanding on the requirement and explaining what the requirement means in real terms.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I would say the recommendations are part of the requirement. They are expanding on what the requirement means in real terms. And helping new instructors understand what the meaning of the requirement actually is.

Here is one example of the boldfaced text for you from Open Water Dive 2.

Requirement:
Using the five point method, ascend at a rate no faster than 18 metres/
60 feet per minute while maintaining buddy contact.

Recommended Techniques for Meeting Performance Requirements:
The emphasis during ascent is on maintaining buoyancy control, maintaining a proper ascent rate and maintaining buddy contact.

ok lets talk about dive two. Lets start with the descent. My standards say "Using the five point method, descend in a controled mannor using a descent line or bottom contour for a reference to a depth not greater than 12 meters/40 feet."

No mention of a buddy.

8, 9 and 10 are mask and reg clearing skills but no mention of doing them midwater. Traditionally these skills are performed while kneeling.

11, "In a stationary position, secure and breath from an alternate air source provided by another diver. Students alternate rolls as doners and receivers"

Stationary? is that on the bottom? That's how it's usually done but, again, this is a skill that divers should be able to do midwater simply because we just aren't always conveniently kneeling when disaster strikes.

Here's my favorite...
13 "Under direct instructor or certified assistant supervision, explore underwater to gain experience"

A very important part of the training dive. How much time are we going to devote to this? Why is there no mention of what the student must occomplish in regards to buoyancy control, trim or buddy awareness? It looks to me like the diver could crwl through the tour and move on to the next dive. Indeed, I have seen exactly that done many many times.

Is my copy, out of date? Has some of this been fixed? Thanks.