How do you feel about PADI bashing on this thread??

[scubajcf]

:thumbs_up: A sage story Mike!

 

[Thalassamania]

I never thought we disagreed. I have read your posts before and have read your profile (impressive). I truly believe the instructor is ALL that matters. If you have an instructor that strives for mediocrity and satisfy the bare agency minimums, they are going to turn out subpar divers. No debate, no argument. Agencies are tools (not beating up on them) and should be used thusly and effectively. That creates great divers.

A footnote: Agencies should remember their place (as a support mechanism for the instructor), nothing more. Agencies who take ownership of the diver are in direct competition with the instructor. This can only lead to disaster!

There are really several separate conversations going on that get interwoven and confused. Most people do not operate well in multi-variate statistical space.

One is, “are agency standards the same and are they high enough?” I maintain that the answer to both those question is no.

And another is, “what makes a quality diver, the instructor or the agency?” The answer to this question is a bit more complex since there is a large interactive term between the two. For example, If I teach a diver within the confines a PADI OW program, using all the requisite materials will I produce a diver with the same skills and knowledge that a diver whom I train to AAUS recommended standards using the NOAA Manual as a text? Cleary no. Let’s say that it’s you rather than me, would you produce a diver with the same skills and knowledge? Again, clearly no. So we can see that there would be a significant difference due to the standards.

Now let’s look at the other potential source of variation, the Instructors. Let’s assume, for the moment, that you’re the world’s greatest 20 hour instructor and I hold that distinction with respect to a 100 hour course. I would predict that your 20 hour students would be better than mine, and my 100 hour students would be better than yours. Now the $64,000 question is, “It the variability in the quality of the divers produced more the result of the standards (hours) or the instructor?” I submit to you that were you able to run a reasonably robust ANOVA on the question the result would be standards, by a landslide. So at these extremes the answer is that it is most likely the agency (standards) not the instructor. As you move in from the extremes the difference in the variability of quality is going to diminish and the difference in Instructor is going to take on more and more importance.

The difference here is that you are, frankly, looking at courses (PADI vs NAUI vs SSI vs XYZ) that are so similar as to have very little "between course variability" so the instructor variability is (for your limited sampling world) significant, but when you expand your world view to programs that run 40 hours (as they did not too long ago) or 100 hours (as they did a long time ago) the variation due to instructor drops to a value that is passing small when compared to the variation due the difference in hours.

Just for a moment, forgo the 20 hour course and its checklists, and take a thought excursion into the world of what kind of students you would produce if you had twice or even five times the course. That’s where I say, it’s not the instructor, it’s the program (standards). I’m not the worlds greatest instructor, but I’ve studied under some who might rightfully claim that title, I just happen to have been lucky enough to have wandered into a situation where I owe my allegiance to a set of standards that does let me turn out some of the best “entry level” divers that there are.

 

[Divedoggie]

Mike,

That is an enlightening and excellent story.

It again confirms that the instructor, maybe even shop policy is ultimately the difference between well trained students and poorly trained students, not really the agency.

PADI sets standards and guidelines. An instructor CAN NOT dismiss any standard, but instructors are free to add to and conduct classes as they see appropriate. PADI encourages instructors to determine ratios and make adjustments or additions to the curriculum to suit conditions and local diving.

PADI's has a teaching system. If instructors ONLY read directly from the book, and followed ONLY the teaching system, it would be terrible. Dry, boring, limited, etc.

When a dynamic, forward thinking, and competent instructor is added to the equation, he/she has a fantastic outline to follow for minimum standards and methods, but the instructor has to contribute experience, additional knowledge, and real life dive training into the equation.

Here is why I have a different perspective. Our OW training takes place 20 ft down at a hanging PVC platform in 65 feet of water.
The first thing we do is make sure all of the students get neutral and understand how to do that themselves. All of the skills are performed while hovering at 20 feet. The instructor can use the pvc platform for control. If a student becomes too buoyant or negative while doing the skill, the instructor can have the student adjust his/her buoancy.
When the students do their "tour" to 40 feet, they go as a single buddy team, and the DM supervises and helps them with a horizontal position in the water.

Since we dive at altitude, I require that all of the students do a 3 minute safety stop at 12 feet every time we ascend.(except CESA) There are 4 lines to buoys for control, but I make everyone hover for their stop.

We discuss the importance of buoyancy control, preventing silt-up, avoiding coral heads, staying off the bottom, streamlining, etc., in the classroom. We discuss, "how to" dive.

I could go on and in more detail, but its not necessary. I feel that every student who is issued a C-card through our PADI dive center is well prepared to be a safe and competent recreational diver. They need to gain more experience, but they need to dive in order to get more experience.

Should PADI and other agencies require more supervised or coached dives before granting a c-card? Maybe. With a solid foundation, there is no substitute for experience.

Addressing the issues based on knowledge and experience is key to a convincing argument. Mike and Thalassamania base their opinions on experience, so I have to take them seriously.

There are a few other posters who are very young, with limited experience and no PADI experience, who just throw out negative propaganda about PADI. Moderators should take a close look at these people because they discredit the overall integrity of this board.

 

[Thalassamania]

... There are a few other posters who are very young, with limited experience and no PADI experience, who just throw out negative propaganda about PADI. Moderators should take a close look at these people because they discredit the overall integrity of this board.

Similar attention (or lack of attention) should be paid to posters who are very young, with limited (or no) instructional experience who just spew an agency party line and attempt to insult their more experienced comarade divers by crying to mama, "he's bashing me."

 

[deepblueme]

Interesting, I have seen several comments about students mot even being able to decend properly.
Shouldnt decending and acending be covered in the pool training? Are you not doing both everytime you go underwater so should it not be used as a training tool? Starting on confined water#1.

 

[loosebits]

There are a few other posters who are very young, with limited experience and no PADI experience, who just throw out negative propaganda about PADI. Moderators should take a close look at these people because they discredit the overall integrity of this board.

Who are you referring to? I am curious who is discrediting the board so I can add them to my ignore list.

 

[MikeFerrara]

For better or worse, just about anyone can say just about anything on a board like this. I understand the security concerns that some people have but I use my name on the board. I don't have the most impressive resume in the world but there isn't anything secret about it. If I put my foot in my mouth, which has probably happened a time or two, every one will know who's foot is in who's mouth.

A farrier board that I participate on will pretty much ignore you if they don't know who you are. One bladesmithing site that I pop in and out of requires you to use your real name.

I think what a person says carries a lot less weight when you don't know who it's coming from.

 

[REII]

I find it quite entertaining.

I am one of the lucky ones. I received my OW from a very thorough NAUI private instructor in 1980. And then I took the AOW from a PADI private instructor with my wife in 2005.

TOM

 

[loosebits]

I think what a person says carries a lot less weight when you don't know who it's coming from.

Good point Mike. Now, I'm not posting my social security number, I don't care what you say

 

[dl348]

PADI - If you like 'em, use 'em - if not - don't. It not a hard decision.

Dave

Very well said.