How do you feel about PADI bashing on this thread??

[MikeFerrara]

You have your opinion and I have mine. While I agree, to some degree, with a large amount of what most people say I just think you guys all to easily blame one particular agency. Personally I have found that most of the divers I come across, irrespective of which agency, have skills that leave a lot to be desired. However here is were my experience differs from yours. Most of the poorly skilled divers I see have not followed any agency recommendations. Most were trained anytime between 1980 and present. Most have not dived in 3 to 25 years and now want to dive. Most do not want to pay for a refresher, as recommended by most agencies, but rather just want to go diving. Most are proud to tell you how much diving they have done. This ranges from 5 - 15 dives spanning over 3 - 25 years all over the world. Most should not be diving but do any way. These are the people I usually see with bad dive skills. In fact they usually have no dive skills. Now it is difficult to say whether this is training based or not but I am assuming it isn't. After all some of you seem to think training was much better long ago. If this is the case these people trained in the early eighties can't really blame their training.

The divers who are recently certified, who practice and dive on a regular basis are usually OK. They may not be perfect and a lot could practice trim but they aren't the liability you make them out to be.

The only reason we're blaming PADI here is because we're discussing PADI standards. I'll bet we could get a copy of the standards of some other agencies and do a number on those too. PADI has set the pace for the most part.

I don't see any sense in discussing what happens to a divers skills during a period of inactivity unless we benchmark where they were before going inactive. If I want to see the effectiveness of training, I want to see the diver on their last training dive.

Lets forget the divers who haven't dived in 10 years and go out and watch some AOW classes in progress. When we see divers sitting on the bottom to tie knots or climbing a rope up from a deep dive like they were making love to a fire pole, we can discuss their skill level and what's being taught in relation to what the agency standards require.

Lets go watch an OW dive 1. When the divers are crawling through the muck, we can discuss the fact that they can't practice buoyancy control and trim because they've only done CW 1 and buoyancy control isn't even introduced until CW 3.

Then we can move on to discuss why that is...the dive today philosophy...do a DSD and get mod 1 credit. You will never see a trim or buoyancy control performance requirement for dive one. They can't because it would blow that whole "dive today" thing right out of the water.

This is the PADI system. If someone really understands all the pieces and how they fit together and they think it's a good idea, more power to them. Too often though, people try to make it sound like something it isn't, isn't intended to be and probably never will be.

These things are the agencies design and they are the agencies responsibility.

My personal opinion is at some point people today should start taking personal responsibility for themselves. If you haven't dived in a while get in the pool, pay someone, find a buddy who dives often, whatever just get some practice in before going off to the lake, quarry or tropical dive vacation.

No doubt the individual is responsible for maintaining or improving their skills. again, though, if your skills aren't good, there isn't anything to maintain.

Divers believe what the agency and their instructor tells them. Sometimes it doesn't work out so well, It's still their ultimate responsibility because no one is twisting their arm to dive or stopping them from doing more research. That does not relieve the responsibility of the agency or the instructors though.

The thing people need to realize is that, in most places, it's legal to sell a lousy product. If people want to buy it, it's their problem. Dive training is a product so the rule is buyer beware.

BTW, I was in a PADI update right after they introduced the dive today philosophy. There was a whole room full of instructors who were mad as hell and they came right out and told PADI that students were going to get hurt. They were right although, most commonly the injuries are minor squeezes and people just go home thinking they have water in their ear. LOL

Anyway, those instructors were pretty much labeled as malcontents and otherwise ignored. I was kind of new at the time and was all GO PADI. Looking back, I should have been listening to the people sitting behind me more than to the guy up in front. It would have saved me a lot of trouble and near disasters later on. I might not have had to re-invent the weel. I could have just spun around in my chair and asked some questions.

 

[drew52]

I guess that is part of the point. With some of you guys it always turns to talking about PADI standards. Most of what you say regarding training is pretty good but when it always turns to talking about PADI standards no matter what then how do we seperate the good of what you are saying from the personal agendas against PADI. Or maybe it isn't but it sure comes across that way. It just so happens that this thread was started about PADI. However they often aren't. Certain people just turn the threads in that direction.

But I repeat myself so perhaps it is time to move on...

 

[fisherdvm]

As snooty as some of the NAUI instructors are, I think I'll just stick with PADI... They are more humbled, and relate to me better.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I guess that is part of the point. With some of you guys it always turns to talking about PADI standards. Most of what you say regarding training is pretty good but when it always turns to talking about PADI standards no matter what then how do we seperate the good of what you are saying from the personal agendas against PADI. Or maybe it isn't but it sure comes across that way. It just so happens that this thread was started about PADI. However they often aren't. Certain people just turn the threads in that direction.

But I repeat myself so perhaps it is time to move on...

Speaking for myself, I reference PADI standards because I was a PADI instructor and have a copy sitting right here. I can't say much about NAUI standards because I've never seen a copy.

I try to reference standards because then, that much isn't opinion. We may disagree as to whether the standards are good or bad and certaily that is opinion.

I suppose I do have an agenda. I have seen people hurt and I've seen people screaming. I've had to search for them when they were missing. I've had to pull them up and I've had to direct traffic for the ambulances coming in. Since, I believe I see a strong connection between dive training and the problems that I've seen divers have, I just can't help but to say so.

Realize that no matter who is talking, it's still your problem to seperate what's useful from what isn't. Also realize that the agency too, has anagenda. They're in the business of selling this stuff. I might have something bad to say about an agencies standards or I might have something good to say. No one at PADI will ever have anything bad to say about PADI standards.

 

[drew52]

As snooty as some of the NAUI instructors are, I think I'll just stick with PADI... They are more humbled, and relate to me better.

 

[MikeFerrara]

As snooty as some of the NAUI instructors are, I think I'll just stick with PADI... They are more humbled, and relate to me better.

I know what you mean. People from over in Stark county are that way too. LOL

 

[Thalassamania]

While I agree, to some degree, with a large amount of what most people say I just think you guys all to easily blame one particular agency.

PADI, NAUI, SSI it doesn’t really matter, none of them are doing the job that they should. PADI is the dominant agency and can be seen as dumping truckload of waste while the others are using just using beach buckets. So where do you expect the discussion to turn? To where the worst and most visible problem is.

Now for those who think PADI started the rot the other agencies did not have to follow.

I agree, they did not have to, but that’s what happened. In some cases because of a perceived need to be competitive, in other cases due to interal politics and beliefs. One NAUI offical (who as far as I’m concerned never bled NAUI blue) was responsible for the PADIfication of NAUI. He did that against the express wishes of the membership, going so far as to circular file questionnaires that he sent out to the membership. He was able, by weakening and ultimately destroying the Branch Manager system and (as a result) the Branch and Local ITCs and by cutting deals with the PDCs, to bring about a shift in the demographics of the membership that almost kept him from being fired, but that in any case shifted the core membership from one dominated by long term independent instructors to one dominated by PDC graduates who last less than 3 years. These PDC graduates voted their PDC owners and Course Directors onto the board, and this radically changed the agency by shifting the paradigm toward what PADI was doing. He was a PADI official before working for NAUI, and I believe again after he was finally canned.

I don’t see anyone with the experience to make the comment saying that divers today are as well trained or prepared as the were in years past. I don’t see anyone saying that their turning out a more skilled, more knowledgeable diver in half the time that it use to take. So if we’re all in agreement that the quality of diver education (agency be damned) has dropped and we’re all in agreement that PADI lead the way in the debacle, so what’s your problem?

Personally I have found that most of the divers I come across, irrespective of which agency, have skills that leave a lot to be desired.

I couldn’t agree more, but twenty years ago that was not the case. Most divers then looked like LA County divers do now. LA County divers still look the same, and with some exceptions, entry-level divers today look poor in comparison. Sure “divers” that haven’t been wet for years and haven’t refreshed are terrible, but I don’t see many of them, a few, a very few. Most of them have dropped out and gone on to Jet Skiing, Snowmobiling, or some other less challenging avocation.

I was just down in the Keys, I made a few dives. Most of the people there were newly certified divers and they were terrible. There were a few older divers, most of who were, actually, pretty good … especially in comparison. I don’t know why my experience differs from yours, but it sure as hell does.

The divers who are recently certified, who are really bad are also just as common from all the agencies I come in contact with.

No argument there.

A large amount who are recently certified, who practice and dive on a regular basis are usually OK. They may not be perfect and a lot could practice trim but they aren't the liability you make them out to be. Am I going to fail someone who doesn't have perfect trim? No but I am going to point them in the right direction and talk about it after each dive. My students are well aware of this by the end of their course. If they haven't got it 100% it is now time for them to practice.

Your standards, I believe, do not call for some spacey form of “awareness” of what should be done, they call for MASTERY of the skill.

My personal opinion is at some point people today should start taking personal responsibility for themselves. If you haven't dived in a while get in the pool, pay someone, find a buddy who dives often, whatever just get some practice in before going off to the lake, quarry or tropical dive vacation.

And my personal opinion is that it is incumbent upon instructors to at least meet the standards of the agency that they certify through and take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for the product they produce. There’s an old saying in the Education biz, “If they haven’t learned, have you taught?” And you can’t “maintain” something that’s broken; you need to fix it first.

 

[drew52]

You see we are actually in agreement on a number of things. Probably more things than you think. I'm just opposed to the continual critiscism of PADI whether the thread had anything to do with PADI or not.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'm just opposed to the continual critiscism of PADI whether the thread had anything to do with PADI or not.

But it's so easy. There is just so much low hanging fruit...big pickings with little reaching.

 

[cerich]

One thing I have noticed.

Often when a standard of an agency gets negative criticism, instructors from that agency sometimes perceive it as agency bashing, why? Agree or disagree it is an instructors honest view.

I also see some instructors taking criticism of the agency they teach for as a personal affront, again why? Unless you wrote the standard why take it so personal.