Help with my first Scuba gear

[lexvil]

2. That's cheating! If you make your entire kit lighter, it goes beyond just a reg.

3. Wait, what? Deep 6 is overpriced? What is the amount that they should charge for them?

5. The average traveling scuba divers rent. So the weight of their scuba gear while traveling is 0 lbs

2a, Not cheating, it’s called a ”plan”

3a! deep 6 costs a lot more than I pay, buy used.

5a, makes the whole discussion moot.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

2a, Not cheating, it’s called a ”plan”

3a! deep 6 costs a lot more than I pay, buy used.

5a, makes the whole discussion moot.

You have an interesting way of not answering questions, so I'll stop.

 

[admikar]

Most or my regs are 20+ years old and don't get serviced on any kind of schedule. I wonder why I'm not dead yet. Old Sherwoods and Titans are bulletproof work horses.

You're a cockroach? You know, resilient and all that?

 

[lexvil]

You have an interesting way of not answering questions, so I'll stop.

I’m unable to open tightly closed minds

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[wetb4igetinthewater]

I’m unable to open tightly closed minds

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Gentle reminder that this thread is in BASIC

Play nice or you may find yourselves out of it

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I didn't think asking for your opinion what was a reasonable price for a new regulator should be. This would be ignoring the overhead for the product (r&d, distribution, support, middlemen sales, etc.). Used is not relevant as it is always cheaper but introduces either the cost of servicing (which can make it less of a good deal) or the hassle of it. That's one reason why I don't sell my old IST reg.

Obviously companies like scubapro have a lot more overhead than a company like Deep 6, but they also have much larger volume, so cost of manufacturing per unit should be lower. Lack of volume is why many companies outsource assembly and manufacturing of parts. It probably helps that regs are so similar that it isn't too cumbersome to switch from one line to another but that is a guess as I don't have that depth of insight in how these companies run.

About the weight issue, I get that when traveling, weight is preferably as low as possible. I get that ultra light hikers who can put in 40 miles per day, reducing 0.8 lbs actually is a big deal. For traveling, not so much. Sure you can reduce the weight of all your kit to have a noticeable difference of a number of pounds but if you then slipped back in your older, heavier reg, would you notice? That's the point I was making.

You brought up the average diver who will never see higher concentrations of Nitrox. While I do believe this is an accurate assessment, none of us here, not even the newly certified diver who participates on scubaboard is average.

I thought that my line of questioning was respectful and appropriate for the basic forum.

We should be able to discuss fact based merits of products and be willing to support our claims. Saying something is the "best" isn't useful. What's the criteria? How is it measured?

I've said many times that most people are happy with their gear choices as most gear simply works.

There is a thing beyond "diminishing returns" and that is "non-existent returns." As an example, the resolution of the human eye is about 6 bits. That's why there is 8 bits per channel for RGB. Extra resolution is only valuable for computations. But for displays, while 16 bits per color channel is "better" than 8-bits, doing so falls under the category of nonexistent returns.

When it comes to regulator performance, is there much of a difference in 1st stages? Is it possible for a diver at 100 meters to breath so hard that their first stage cannot keep up? If I understand @rsingler's 2nd stage tests, those are different and they perform differently in different conditions (i encourage everyone to follow his posts about regulators).

I think that HOG sells one of the least expensive regs out there and there are a number of people tech diving with them. So where is the return for going with more expensive regs, including Deep 6? That depends on how much values quality of parts, ease of service, availability of service kits and other things that vary to the individual.

We will never escape emotion based preferences, but we should be able to quantify a fair bit. And we should be honest about where we have emotion based preferences.

And that's where I've been trying to go with this discussion.

 

[Tournesol2000]

And we are back!
@MaverickDiver94, not sure where you are at now with decisions. I will give you my process as a new diver.
I wanted my own gear from as soon as I was certified. For me I felt that if I was in control of my equipment, I felt safer.
Scubaboard members have a wealth of information to share and I honestly could not have confidently bought what I wanted without their guidance.
I am/was on a budget as life is for some of us, so after weeks of reading forums and seeing what everyone says, and taking that with a grain of salt, I ordered Deep6 regs.
Cheaper than others but looking at who endorsed them made me feel comfortable. - if it’s good enough for a cave diver, it should be good enough for me when I go warm water diving on vacation.
I agree all regs will be fine for most divers.
When it came to BCD, I never liked the restricted feeling of a BCD with weight pockets (one fell out during OW cert) and I wanted something less constricting. Again Scubaboard and some LDS educated me on BPW set up. I was sold! I also learned that the 400 set from Zeagle or others worked fine and as good as the 1,000 kits. So I went with zeagle. Again no regrets.
Let us know what you end up getting and good luck in the process.

 

[lexvil]

I didn't think asking for your opinion what was a reasonable price for a new regulator should be. This would be ignoring the overhead for the product (r&d, distribution, support, middlemen sales, etc.). Used is not relevant as it is always cheaper but introduces either the cost of servicing (which can make it less of a good deal) or the hassle of it. That's one reason why I don't sell my old IST reg.

reasonable is in the eye of the beholder, since I rarely buy a new anything I try to buy stuff that performs well and has such a huge worldwide presence that I can obtain what I need or want without having to pay the supplier to tell me how simple their design is so that I can obtain parts from a tiny list of sources.

Obviously companies like scubapro have a lot more overhead than a company like Deep 6, but they also have much larger volume, so cost of manufacturing per unit should be lower. Lack of volume is why many companies outsource assembly and manufacturing of parts. It probably helps that regs are so similar that it isn't too cumbersome to switch from one line to another but that is a guess as I don't have that depth of insight in how these companies run.

About the weight issue, I get that when traveling, weight is preferably as low as possible. I get that ultra light hikers who can put in 40 miles per day, reducing 0.8 lbs actually is a big deal. For traveling, not so much. Sure you can reduce the weight of all your kit to have a noticeable difference of a number of pounds but if you then slipped back in your older, heavier reg, would you notice? That's the point I was making.

I can put together a kit with everything I need for warm water diving that comes in at 18lb s, including a spare mask and two wetsuits, if you want light weight go anywhere quickly with you being the only person who can loose your gear every ounce makes a difference, would someone notice jet fins over lite weight fins? 10lb stainless backplate over aluminum or a soft plate, each one compromise adds up, or or not, we all make our own decisions.

You brought up the average diver who will never see higher concentrations of Nitrox. While I do believe this is an accurate assessment, none of us here, not even the newly certified diver who participates on scubaboard is average.

I brought up the average diver because you brought up nox as a point against titanium, an average diver who elects to buy his or her own regulator is not going to encounter mixes over or even near 40% o2 in regular travel and in you point of rental the point is moot.

I thought that my line of questioning was respectful and appropriate for the basic forum.

it seems someone thought my response was not…

We should be able to discuss fact based merits of products and be willing to support our claims. Saying something is the "best" isn't useful. What's the criteria? How is it measured?

when someone opines what for them is “best” doesn’t diminish anything, it doesn’t harm your favorite brown and white point if someone else prefers their all white pony.

I've said many times that most people are happy with their gear choices as most gear simply works.

There is a thing beyond "diminishing returns" and that is "non-existent returns." As an example, the resolution of the human eye is about 6 bits. That's why there is 8 bits per channel for RGB. Extra resolution is only valuable for computations. But for displays, while 16 bits per color channel is "better" than 8-bits, doing so falls under the category of nonexistent returns.

When it comes to regulator performance, is there much of a difference in 1st stages? Is it possible for a diver at 100 meters to breathe so hard that their first stage cannot keep up? If I understand @rsingler's 2nd stage tests, those are different and they perform differently in different conditions (i encourage everyone to follow his posts about regulators).

overall there isn’t much difference in first stage performance, people are allowed to use non tangible criteria for their choice. The differences in second stages are more noticeable to the user but tuning has as much if not more effect on that. Once again non tangible can make one pick one brand over another, for some it’s the name for some it’s the shine and for others size.

I think that HOG sells one of the least expensive regs out there and there are a number of people tech diving with them. So where is the return for going with more expensive regs, including Deep 6? That depends on how much values quality of parts, ease of service, availability of service kits and other things that vary to the individual.

We will never escape emotion based preferences, but we should be able to quantify a fair bit. And we should be honest about where we have emotion based preferences.

And that's where I've been trying to go with this discussion.

Emotional or logical are still individual choices, this whole industry is based on it.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

reasonable is in the eye of the beholder, since I rarely buy a new anything I try to buy stuff that performs well and has such a huge worldwide presence that I can obtain what I need or want without having to pay the supplier to tell me how simple their design is so that I can obtain parts from a tiny list of sources.

Sure. But what is your number?

I can put together a kit with everything I need for warm water diving that comes in at 18lb s, including a spare mask and two wetsuits, if you want light weight go anywhere quickly with you being the only person who can loose your gear every ounce makes a difference, would someone notice jet fins over lite weight fins? 10lb stainless backplate over aluminum or a soft plate, each one compromise adds up, or or not, we all make our own decisions.

I brought up the average diver because you brought up nox as a point against titanium, an average diver who elects to buy his or her own regulator is not going to encounter mixes over or even near 40% o2 in regular travel and in you point of rental the point is moot.

Okay, you dropped the "traveling" part. That is significant. I will agree that the average local recreational diver will never need an O2 capable reg as that's reserved for technical diving. But local divers are not going to care so much about weight, are they?

Not everyone travels with a full kit either. Sometimes I just take mask, regs, and dive computer and rent everything else as the trip isn't dive focused. 0.8 lbs isn't going to be noticed. I do understand that in your case, you are saving weight in your entire scuba kit to make travel easier for you. But that doesn't apply to all traveling divers either.

This is the category of diminishing returns, but not non-existent returns.

it seems someone thought my response was not…

when someone opines what for them is “best” doesn’t diminish anything, it doesn’t harm your favorite brown and white point if someone else prefers their all white pony.

No it doesn't, but we should always press for the basis for which someone makes their claim. Otherwise the statement has no value.

overall there isn’t much difference in first stage performance, people are allowed to use non tangible criteria for their choice. The differences in second stages are more noticeable to the user but tuning has as much if not more effect on that. Once again non tangible can make one pick one brand over another, for some it’s the name for some it’s the shine and for others size.

Emotional or logical are still individual choices, this whole industry is based on it.

Absolutely. However, if we are to compare product A vs product B, we should be able to separate those items. For first time buyers, they should receive honest information. Lack of integrity is an issue in most (all?) industries, scuba included.

Again, there is a list of criteria that individuals have that is weighted differently per the individual. How those numbers add up determines the "best" for that individual. But there never is, nor ever will be, a "best" for everyone. How someone reaches the "best" should be easily explained.

To others reading this, particularly people looking at buying equipment,

I hope this back and forth makes sense. How you prioritize features (including price) will help determine the "best" reg for you (and not me or anyone else participating in this thread). And the reality is, you will be happy with whatever you buy as most gear simply works. That's why people most often recommend what they own.

 

[lexvil]

My number $100

im 6’5” I can’t just “rent” much, size 15 feet, regulator and mask are about the only thing I could rent.

 

[Boarderguy]

My number $100

im 6’5” I can’t just “rent” much, size 15 feet, regulator and mask are about the only thing I could rent.

Lurch