Government Regulation

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Having given examples of scenarios with such issues as fraud, endangerment and destruction of what might be considered community property (e.g.: endangered species and coral reef, both limited natural resources presumed to be shared with the rest of mankind), you said:

But when asked to define liberty earlier, part of what I posted was:

I did not promote sociopathic anarchy. My issue is government trying to protect people from themselves by overriding their free will, like the New York guy who was out to ban large soda cups at restaurants.

Richard.

I thought your definition of liberty or freedom is what a lot of people would say, but it is a popular misconception. The "I'll do what ever I want" mentality easily becomes a pretext for ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, recklessness, laziness and selfishness. There is often little consideration of the longer term consequences of the behaviour. Ironically, this is precisely the kind of behaviour that necessitates government intervention and laws. I'd redefine liberty as doing whatever you please providing you always do what is right and good. :wink:
 
Only place I've personally dived where scuba diving is regulated by the government is the Maldives ... where they set mandatory regulations on how deep you can go and specify that you MUST dive with a buddy.

Based on what I witnessed, I can't say it did a thing to improve diving safety ... some of the worst "divers" I've ever seen dropped down on top of us (literally) at a manta cleaning station. Damn things (the "divers") were crawling around on the bottom like vermin.

Well, at least those terrible divers weren't dropping down below 30m/100ft (the enforced limit) or alone. That must be contributing to safety somewhat....

Just how will it be enfaced? Cop at every spot along the water? TSA frisk before you can get close?

Laws do NOT, can NOT and will NOT stop stupid people from doing stupid things.

Laws deter. Enforcement prevents.

I'd settle for deterrence, rather than nothing.

Would it have made a difference if taking your untrained child on a technical cave dive was illegal, rather than "frowned upon"? Who knows in that instance? But it would have allowed someone to potentially take action at an earlier stage...

Contrary to some cynics, I do believe most people are inherently law-abiding. Beyond that, a majority would be fearful of punishment for breaking laws, even if enforcement were light. It'd have an impact on many people's decision making, I believe.
 
DD I agree with a lot of what you say, but not in this case.

I see how laws have stopped murder, drunk driving, speeding, lets not forget the "war on drugs" which has been going on since 1971, rape, robbery, ext. These problems are as bad now as any time. Law only stop law abiding people. Which is why I said it will not stop stupid people from doing stupid things. Most people that were not going to do stupid things will not do them with or without laws. This is not to say that people who break laws that cause harm to others should not be punished.

Obviously the subject of this story was set on his path and proud of it. While possible that a law MIGHT have altered that all of the negative aspects of new laws like that are NOT worth the trade off.

Yes I do believe that industry "self regulation" is enough. There has to be a happy medium. I do not want to have to answer to the .gov every time I want to go diving any more then I do any other sport. Should the .gov tell people they can not go hiking without XXX card or without paying XXX fee? How about skiing, rock climbing, ext? Yes I believe it is good that the industry has min ages and min training requirements to move up.

Any time the .gov gets involved things never get better. Think about where we are in scuba these days. Imagine if 10, 20, 30 years ago they started regulating stuff we would not have pioneers in mixed gas (including Nitrox), Caving, rebreathers, ext. These were people who wanted to go out and try things. They built gear, did "dumb" things, pushed past "normal" limits. Yes there were accidents and deaths which really sucks, but they KNEW the risks and took them willingly. The great thing about that it was THEIR choice not .gov. I could easily go out snowboarding and break my neck next time. Does that need .gov regulation?
 
I see how laws have stopped murder, drunk driving, speeding, lets not forget the "war on drugs" which has been going on since 1971, rape, robbery, ext.

Who ever claimed that laws would stop crime? Decrease.... decrease is nice. Decrease is very nice.

As in... "it'd be nice if we could decrease the number of people dying in caves..." Of course, 'stop' would be better, but we know the reality. So, we accept decrease...

Law only stop law abiding people.

There are, as I see it, three catagories of people when it comes to crime:

1) Law-Abiding People, who ethically choose to follow the law, without the need for coercion.

2) Law-Fearing People, who might choose to ignore the law, but choose not to due to coercion (fear of punishment).

3) People who neither abide by, nor fear the law, who have no ethical barrier to committing a crime and can justify the outcome above the risk of punishment (simple risk versus reward).

Your premise seems to assume that anyone who chooses to ignore recommended limits given to them in scuba diving is (1) Stupid and (2) Neither Law-Abiding nor Law-Fearing. I believe that is a disservice to most divers who, to varying degrees, choose to ignore advice (whether formal or informal).

Let's face it - a great majority of divers ignore prudent advice, to varying extents and degrees. Are they all unintelligent, immoral and immune to fear of prosecution? I don't think so for a second...

Some believe that Laws are a representation of societies' values of right and wrong. It is wrong to murder. It is wrong to rape. Is it wrong for an unqualified diver to take his untrained son to 230ft inside a dangerous cave system? Right or wrong? If you feel it is wrong... should it be punishable? Should a father (if they had survived) been prosecuted for the wrongness of his actions?

Let's not forget - governments create laws, but do so at the behest of society. Also don't forget that laws have a 'normalizing' effect. As something becomes ingrained in law, it also becomes ingrained in societal attitudes. 100 years ago selling cocaine wasn't 'wrong'. It is now very wrong. The general public don't currently view untrained divers entering caves as morally wrong. Would it be better if they did?

I do believe that industry "self regulation" is enough...

The relative success or failure should be measured objectively, not subjectively. Does self-regulation prevent accidents/injuries/fatalities to an 'acceptable' level? How do we define an 'acceptable' level?

It's easy to be blase about this in theory. Let's never forget the reality when people die - shattered families, traumatized children, grieving...

So how many is 'acceptable' before we should seek change? Seek decrease...

There has to be a happy medium.

I suggest it is far from 'happy'.

Any time the .gov gets involved things never get better.

Sorry... I couldn't help but post this...

 
Did you read the entire thread? And, just as you argue with my fictional diver specifications, you would be unhappy equally so with anything from the government.

Yes, I read the entire thread. I also still think your numbers are ridiculous, I personally don't think scuba should be regulated by the government anymore than it already is (use a dive flag) but if it was- I don't think I'd be equally unhappy with ANYTHING the government came up with: because I doubt their specifications would require only anorexic women. If you use numbers to make a point, maybe you should check your numbers- you picked a body fat percentage well below that of Olympic female athletes... I actually think many government regulations make sense: for instance, I'm a big fan of stop signs.

I realize you were trying to exaggerate (free dive to 100 feet? I don't even scuba to that depth) but at least your other numbers are things some people could do. They might eliminate the vast majority of divers, but it wouldn't be the opposite of what you were trying to prove. You wanted "healthy" and you didn't support it. Numbers mean things.
 

I have always argued that politicians should at least be required to hold a "real" job for 10 years before standing for elected office. Not sure if it is as bad in the US, but in the UK you get "career politicians" who start by working for political parties, are eventually promoted to safe seats, and eventually take their place in Government without ever having held a real job in their lives. Two thirds of the current British cabinet are made up of such people. It's no wonder they don't know what is going on in the real world.


---------- Post added December 29th, 2013 at 10:13 PM ----------



I can't speak for other states, but I am pretty sure that in FL you get separate licences for lobster hunting on scuba, and there are certainly separate regulations dealing with the how, where, why, how many, etc. of taking lobsters on scuba.
But my point is more general - regulation always comes in via the back door, and at first you don't object. But then it never leaves...

We in RI had a state rep that became a federal rep proclaim at a party; it was picked up by a couple of news types that were there,
he said something to the effect, that he didn't care about taxes, he never had a job in his life and never will! A true Kennedy!

Here in RI we have a scuba diving lobster license that is different in that it doesn't allow the scuba diver to use pots! In MA striped bass cannot be speared over the line in RI spear away! Bag limits maybe the same I'm not sure.

---------- Post added December 30th, 2013 at 09:11 AM ----------

DD I agree with a lot of what you say, but not in this case.

I see how laws have stopped murder, drunk driving, speeding, lets not forget the "war on drugs" which has been going on since 1971, rape, robbery, ext. These problems are as bad now as any time. Law only stop law abiding people. Which is why I said it will not stop stupid people from doing stupid things. Most people that were not going to do stupid things will not do them with or without laws. This is not to say that people who break laws that cause harm to others should not be punished.

Obviously the subject of this story was set on his path and proud of it. While possible that a law MIGHT have altered that all of the negative aspects of new laws like that are NOT worth the trade off.

Yes I do believe that industry "self regulation" is enough. There has to be a happy medium. I do not want to have to answer to the .gov every time I want to go diving any more then I do any other sport. Should the .gov tell people they can not go hiking without XXX card or without paying XXX fee? How about skiing, rock climbing, ext? Yes I believe it is good that the industry has min ages and min training requirements to move up.

Any time the .gov gets involved things never get better. Think about where we are in scuba these days. Imagine if 10, 20, 30 years ago they started regulating stuff we would not have pioneers in mixed gas (including Nitrox), Caving, rebreathers, ext. These were people who wanted to go out and try things. They built gear, did "dumb" things, pushed past "normal" limits. Yes there were accidents and deaths which really sucks, but they KNEW the risks and took them willingly. The great thing about that it was THEIR choice not .gov. I could easily go out snowboarding and break my neck next time. Does that need .gov regulation?

Laws DEFINE crimes. Enforcement and punishment deters.
 
So what if:

- a dive charter chooses to trick people into thinking a dive is easier than it is to get more customers?

He will quickly develop a bad reputation and lose business ... possibly to the point where he can't sustain enough of a market base to remain in business. But dive ops generally aren't going to make decisions like that, because the last thing any dive op wants (even a bad one) is to have to deal with the legal consequences of a casualty.

- an instructor skips part of a course to get through it quicker and make more money?

He is in violation of agency standards, and if the agency does what it's supposed to he will lose his accreditation to teach scuba.


- a scuba equipment supplier uses cheap defective parts in order to increase return on sales?

He will be held liable for damages, either through criminal or civil lawsuits.


- a diver ignores the needs of their buddy for purely selfish motives and in so doing endangers their life?

Then you choose not to dive with that dive buddy again.

- spearfishermen target a species of fish in an area to the point of extinction?

Spearfishermen simply don't have that kind of impact on fish species. Species overharvesting is generally due to commercial operations ... but that's more a matter for state Fish and Wildlife to deal with, or as has been the case in areas like George's Bank in the late '90's ... international agreements.

- photographers crash over and destroy pristine coral in an area in their bid to get the 'trophy photo'.

Happens all the time ... and no amount of legislation can prevent it, or even reduce it. A better idea would be for dive ops to start refusing service to those people.

A lot of people could legitimately argue that this is the "right to make your own decisions & do as you please". In so doing they endanger people's lives and the wellbeing of the environment.

Explain to us how you believe government intervention could address any of those problems you listed ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added December 30th, 2013 at 07:36 AM ----------

I'd settle for deterrence, rather than nothing.

Would it have made a difference if taking your untrained child on a technical cave dive was illegal, rather than "frowned upon"? Who knows in that instance? But it would have allowed someone to potentially take action at an earlier stage...

Contrary to some cynics, I do believe most people are inherently law-abiding. Beyond that, a majority would be fearful of punishment for breaking laws, even if enforcement were light. It'd have an impact on many people's decision making, I believe.

Hit and run is illegal. Sex with a minor is illegal. Did it being illegal stop this same person from doing those things?

No it did not.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
- a dive charter chooses to trick people into thinking a dive is easier than it is to get more customers?

He will quickly develop a bad reputation and lose business ... possibly to the point where he can't sustain enough of a market base to remain in business. But dive ops generally aren't going to make decisions like that, because the last thing any dive op wants (even a bad one) is to have to deal with the legal consequences of a casualty.


I've seen plenty enough dive operations displaying an 'It'll never happen to us" (accident) mindset as I have divers. In short... a lot...

- an instructor skips part of a course to get through it quicker and make more money?

He is in violation of agency standards, and if the agency does what it's supposed to he will lose his accreditation to teach scuba.


The obvious flaw there is how the agency learns of those deviations from standards. How many students are aware of the standards their training should be held against - and would know they are broken so report them? How easy is the reporting process? And then, if rapport is good between instructor and student...and the student has a great time in training, there may be strong motivation not to report known standards violations to the agency. Especially so if the instructor has reinforced to the student that they are 'well trained'... and the student believes that, with little for comparison at the time..

- a scuba equipment supplier uses cheap defective parts in order to increase return on sales?

He will be held liable for damages, either through criminal or civil lawsuits.


... in the USA.

- a diver ignores the needs of their buddy for purely selfish motives and in so doing endangers their life?

Then you choose not to dive with that dive buddy again.


...and there's an endless supply of unwitting insta-buddies for that diver to endanger in the future.

- photographers crash over and destroy pristine coral in an area in their bid to get the 'trophy photo'.

Happens all the time ... and no amount of legislation can prevent it, or even reduce it. A better idea would be for dive ops to start refusing service to those people.


External regulation... such as the upcoming ban on cameras at Sipidan Island. The effect of which might be an interesting case study.

Hit and run is illegal. Sex with a minor is illegal. Did it being illegal stop this same person from doing those things? No it did not.

That individual would fall into the third category. I don't believe his mindset and persistent criminality represent that of the 'average' diver (who might nonetheless choose to ignore prudent safety advice and do otherwise...). However, if that 'advice' became legal direction... I think most divers would reconsider their adherence to the issues covered.

Again, hoping to stop problems is a pipe-dream. Decreasing problems is an achievable reality.
 
2 things:
first, I think the idea that the idea that laws don't deter crime is ridiculous. Laws are supposed to regulate a civil society. Most laws on the book are not about crime, they are about actions between parties. Sometimes those parties are represented by the state. Fishing regulations allow the state to represent all other parties (like tax payers, other fishermen, boaters and divers). The size limit on fish like striped bass and lobster are there to ensure the continued availability of those resources to all parties. If you live near a fracking well and you feel that well might endanger the safety of your drinking water, the laws are supposed to be written so that you can have your dispute mediated by the government, either through a regulatory agency or courts, rather than having you go over and "settle the score" with the guy working the rig. If your neighbor has a tree that is brushing up against the side of your house, the law allows you to protect your interests through a non-violent set of rules that define responsibility. Some of the laws rub people the wrong way, but it allows me to get along with my neighbors.

There was a company that wanted to open an industrial quarry in my town. I would have torn up open space next to a park and required 200,000 truck loads of gravel removed over several years.... 8 round trips of monster trucks sun up to sundown 7 days a week. The laws allowed for residents to have public hearings to decide if that was acceptable to the community and would protect our property rights. With those hearings the land owners were allowed explain the value of the project to the community and what they would do to protect our rights and explain how after the quarrying they would restore the land and donate the restored land and artificial lakes to the town. Because everyone had a say, the quarry was blocked and the town eventually bought the land from the developer to cover what he spent to get the land. In some places this type of dispute might have involved a group of Pinkertons against some local vigilantes.

Second, we are discussing laws and not the democratic process. If you take the Washington State giant octopus battle it shows how democracy works. A spectrum of people had differing view on what limits should be set on the harvesting of octopi. There was a public and open debate about what should be done, both in the media and in public hearings. The media aired a variety of opinions and views and different stake holders were able to educate the public and the government about their concerns. At the end of the debate, the rules were better defined to protect the rights of everyone without having NWGratefulDiver beating the tar out of some stupid kid. Stupid Kid get to go on with his life intact (if not his reputation). The public (partly divers) are more aware of the issue and fishermen can continue to hunt octopi with a few restrictions, but respecting the rights of others to enjoy the animals in a different non-culinary way.

Laws written behind closed doors or secretly influence by big money poison that system. The US tea-party, while the aims are sincere have been getting a disproportionate say in the public debate because of big donors like the Coke brothers and the Super-PACs. Commercial interests like big energy and can and have played the same game. When the gov't wanted to limit the ability of food stamps to pay for sodas, big soda formed a front group named something like "consumers for free choice" to air ads against the measure. Big money has also tainted the debate over things like climate change, spending millions to say that it is unproven when the reality is there is overwhelm evidence that it has been occurring and that the current trends in change are perfectly in line with computer models set up in the last decade.

Part of the value of a laws in a democracy is the system in which they are made. Labelling regulation as bad is like saying color is ugly. Some are, sure, to much of any particular one may ruin something. But the idea of color as having to be good or bad isn't realistic. Lower speed limits saved lives, when they were raised, so were the number of fatalities. Ignoring that is ridiculous, but there is a mid point where people will find acceptable risk.

You get what you elect. A narrow minded, self-interested, poorly educated public gets exactly that when they go to the polls.

I am aware that I am in the minority in some of these discussions but it wouldn't be fair to my friends here not to voice my opinion, because even though you may not agree, at least you can see where I am coming from and hopefully respect that.

“Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
-- Thomas Jefferson
 
I am always amused by people who take everything to extreme, immersing themselves in the either/or fallacy. As some have pointed out, we already have lots of government regulation of scuba. Any change would be a matter of degree. Here in Colorado and the neighboring states, nearly all dive sites are on some government's property, and they make the rules. They tell us where we can dive (now where are the really, really crappy parts of this reservoir?), when we can dive, and under what circumstances (better have a buddy and a flag). So the only real question is how far you want that control to go. To illustrate the real problem as I see it, let me describe a real issue a group of us had trying to teach a large group of students in Carter lake, Colorado.

It was August, and we had been teaching classes every other week since the end of Spring. We were setting up the dive site in preparation for the classes when the rangers arrived to tell us we were not on their list of approved and insured instructional programs. How could we not be, we asked, since we had been coming there all summer with no problems?

Sorry! We were not on the list. No instruction could be carried on that weekend. We and all your students would have to go home--no refunds on the entry fee.

We called the shop. They had copies of the required forms showing we had done all the correct paperwork and gotten confirmation of our approval. They could fax copies immediately.

Sorry! That didn't matter. You have to be on the official list, and there is a specific person who puts you on that list. She does not work weekends. When she came in on Monday, she could put us on the list. Until them no diving for us.

Can't you see that this has to be your mistake, we asked? Isn't it obvious that we have done everything right, but somehow you have mistakenly left us off the list?

Maybe so, they said, but if you are not on the list of approved dive operators, you can't dive here.

All of the above is what I was told. I was just a DM then, and I was in the water setting up the dive platform for the students to use. They did not see me get out of the water because of the heated conversation. That was lucky. If they had seen me, I would have been fined $100 for being in the water without a buddy. I would have been fined $100 for being in the water without a dive flag, even though I was in a restricted zone open only to diving. I would have been fined $100 because I had left my certification card at home.

Just as things looked really dire, one of our group, looking at the list of approved operators, saw that one of the approved operators was owned by someone he knew well. He got out his cell phone and called him. After a few minutes of explaining the situation, he handed the cell phone over to the rangers. The owner of that operation told the rangers that he had just hired all our instructional staff for that weekend. We were now part of his shop, and we had permission to do our instruction there. The rangers were furious. They tried to think of anything they could do, anything at all, to screw us over and keep us out of the water. They could not come up with anything, and we were saved. They were so frustrated that they forgot to ask the instructional staff to produce their C-cards, which would have worked, since none of us had them.

The next day they tried it again, telling us we would not get by on a technicality this time. Fortunately, try as they might, they could not think of any legal way to screw us over, as much as they clearly wanted to. We had even brought our C-cards.

And so, I do recognize that the government is already involved in regulating scuba. I would just prefer to keep it at a minimum.

Perfect example that government is already too involved in scuba.

When your laws and the enfocement of them fail the 'common sense' approach that was more common in the 1960s approach to governement of what is still experienced in rural areas... then it's time to rethink things.

In Colorado even up into the 90s we had a lot more 'common sense' approach to laws and enforcement, unfortunately the boulderization of the state that has happened in the last 10 years has destroyed most of this as too many in this country, including Colorado seem to want to copy the miserable failures of Kalifornia and mimic them in each state.
 
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