General Vortex Incident Discussion

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Have there been any BM doubles (non-cave certified) divers killed in caves? Were the two at Eagles Nest a couple years ago not?

I'm sure there have been. Off the top of m head, I can't think of a particular incident...

Waynes World, wasn't that long ago.

 

[ucfdiver]

And who gave him the key?

Paul Heinerth was the property manager. Can't swear to who gave him the key, but that would be my guess. I believe their story was that they were picking up trash.

 

[PfcAJ]

O. So a cave diver and a wanna be cave diver were given the key that was supposed to be given out to full-cave divers only. That clears it up.

Facilitation? Just maybe?

 

[ucfdiver]

O. So a cave diver and a wanna be cave diver were given the key that was supposed to be given out to full-cave divers only. That clears it up.

Facilitation? Just maybe?

Only a short time after an intro (or maybe cave 1?) diver and his OW buddy got bent at Eagles Nest sharing a dive computer.

Yes, it's one big CF.

 

[LiteHedded]

you teach OW sidemount to a guy from Tennessee in the basin of a cave diving site. where do you THINK this guy is going to be diving sidemount?

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Because its a cave skill. I said that already

Its a gear configuration, just like BM doubles I already said that. At the level he was trained, it was definately not a cave skill, nor was he duped into thinking it was.

 

[Hetland]

Yes, let's go over this again.

PfcAJ and ucfdiver think only fully certified cave divers with X number of completed Eagle's Nest penetrations should have access to sidemount gear and training. This has been repeated over and over and over, in multiple threads.

I thought the Eagle's Nest bit would be absurd enough to suggest some sarcasm and embellishment, but I guess not......

Quote me once where I've said that. If you can, I'll buy you dinner next time you're in cave country.

Assuming you use the same avatar pic, but a different user name on a different board:

I think BM makes more sense for training, and SM is a more advanced tool that should be introduced later on. I just don't understand the desire to be one dimensional as a diver.

Regs fail open, so you have time to swim up. Tanks get harder to breathe from before you go OOA. I don't see any situation in OW where redundancy is really "needed", and if it were, a buddy would solve the issue. From my experience, I'd be a lot more worried carrying tanks off the back of a dive boat and falling because of the swells than some hypothetical sudden OOA situation.

I'll offer a bit of an apology though, because in my mind, I was mixing up your posts with the posts of another diver. Looks like I might owe you a beer the next time I'm in cave country.

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I'll buy you a steak dinner if you can show me where I said that. Heck, I'll even buy you a dessert.

See above about sarcasm and embellishment.

I think its silly because its not NEEDED for the environment. I'll bet you a steak dinner that with some flexibility training, a good fitting suit, and TIME (theres a new one), that I could get your guy doing good shutdowns in backmounted doubles. You even stated that his friends were diving SM...I guess he does want to be like them.

I feel there are very clear disadvantaged to SM for a new cave diver (and possibly any diver) when you compare back mounted doubles. A debate raged on for a good time about if intro students should be allowed to dive doubles...after all, they might get far in the cave. Yet here we are, discussing teaching people techniques that can not only get them far, but in to MUCH more challenging passages (it just happened). Thats just ridiculous.

Unfortunately, it seems that people (no one in particular) might be teaching classes to get cash. It happens all the time with basic OW classes, instructors selling dumb specialties, and we even see it with cave instructors. Hopefully James will sell me his list and I'll post it on here.

These arguments for "added safety" are a real stretch. SM is a tool, just like doubles are. But for OW rec dives, a single tank is the tool of choice. I really think it is a trend, people trying to be cool, since there really isn't a good reason (there are lots of "reasons" though) to do SM in open water.

Why not teach the basics of cave diving before introducing a more complex and advanced method of diving. I'm willing to bet you a steak dinner that he didn't have some back problem, or a shoulder mobility issue, or whatever the reason dujour is for diving SM

Doing things without a reason is never smart in my book. And most of the reasons for wanting to dive SM in OW are bs, as far as I'm concerned. Its analogous to rebreather for a new diver, to me. Learn to cave dive, then lets learn the specialized stuff. Hell, we were all debating if intro divers should be allowed to dive doubles, and yet here we are giving the tools to brand spakin new (potential) cave divers a tool to get not only far, but in small, unforgiving cave.

I see OW SM training as something born out of cave diving that facilitates getting into small cave. Its not as simple as a single tank, and its more complex than BM doubles, for sure. There is a whole section devoted to SM on more than one dive forum...

If he was never going to go into a cave...why did he need SM?

 

[ucfdiver]

Its a gear configuration, just like BM doubles I already said that. At the level he was trained, it was definately not a cave skill, nor was he duped into thinking it was.

Well, the dude wasn't exactly filthy rich...not like he was going to use SM for his tropical vacation. :cool2:

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

you teach OW sidemount to a guy from Tennessee in the basin of a cave diving site. where do you THINK this guy is going to be diving sidemount?

He was living in Destin.

How many cave divers go to Vortex? Its an insignificant fraction compared to OW divers Its an OW site, that happens to have cave.

 

[PfcAJ]

He just happened to be taught this cave diving equipment config in an area littered with caves with the known intention of going cave diving. It doesn't take Nostradamus to see where this is going....