General Vortex Incident Discussion

[ScubaSteve]

you teach OW sidemount to a guy from Tennessee in the basin of a cave diving site. where do you THINK this guy is going to be diving sidemount?

I am assuming there is OW divers get trained at Vortex......

"You train OW divers outside a cave, where do you think they are going to go?"

Bottom line is, anybody with the brains to know their limitations, will stay the F out of the big fancy cave irrespective of where their tank(s) are located. If all it took was strapping on 2 tanks to convince Ben that he was qualified to dive caves, then he was stupid before his instructor ever met him.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Well, the dude wasn't exactly filthy rich...not like he was going to use SM for his tropical vacation. :cool2:

I don't think anyone is denying he wanted to cave dive? That doesn't mean someone can't take an OW SM course, get used to it in OW, before taking a cave(rn) course and diving SM comfortably there.

I get pissed when people take new gear configurations and equipment into the cave environment without some level of confort before hand... there's lots of beat to **** cave because of that.

He just happened to be taught this cave diving equipment config in an area littered with caves with the known intention of going cave diving. It doesn't take Nostradamus to see where this is going....

Exactly, anyone with any sense would think this guy would continue on with a cave course. He took it upon himself not to. He didn't have cave training and supposedly died. Where does configuration come into play? It doesn't.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

They might have known they were diving above their training, but they certainly thought they had enough knowledge to pull it off. Dunning-Kruger at its finest.

Could better training centered on truly developing diver skill and knowledge, augmented by solid equipment/gas choices and dive planning help people out? I certainly think so. I do not think that most cave classes are geared toward that. The end result is someone with a cert card who thinks they are at pretty good, when they aren't. I've seen this first hand on multiple occasions, and its kinda sad and tragic, a little.

Better training is already available.

People who are into taking shortcuts aren't going to be interested in taking the courses that would hold them to higher standards. In most cases these people will shop around for the class that costs the least, or that gives them the easiest path to where they want access to. And as long as there's a market for dumbed-down classes, there will always be someone out there willing to offer them. It's a necessary consequence of our free-market system.

The only real way around it is government regulation ... and I don't, personally, want to go there.

I prefer making people responsible for their own choices, and if they make bad ones, they are responsible for the consequences ...



... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I really think that if Ben wasn't taught SM (esp since he apparently had cave ambitions), we wouldn't be having this discussion.

He was unskilled and unaware. Unaware of what it really takes to dive Vortex properly (since he thought he could do it himself and was a self proclaimed cave diver) and unskilled in SM diving (look at the videos). Could the instructor say "hey man, I'm glad you're interested in this stuff, but lets take it one thing at a time. I'll help you get good at cave diving, good at SM, and we'll work on this project together". Instead, he was taught half of the equation, and Ben thought he could fill in the blanks.

There was a chain of events that led to this, and a proper intervention could have saved his life. Same thing for Joe and Yessic, same thing for Bruce, same thing for all of the deaths we see. They are almost all preventable. Thats what bothers me. Preventable deaths.

Given the amount of effort this young man put into killing himself, I think no matter what he was taught, or who taught him, we'd eventually be having this discussion.

It's pretty clear the dude was a risk-taker ... and didn't want to pay the dues required of those who typically take those sorts of risks.

I think his death was inevitable ... only the circumstances leading up to it were ever in question ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ucfdiver]

I don't think anyone is denying he wanted to cave dive? That doesn't mean someone can't take an OW SM course, get used to it in OW, before taking a cave(rn) course and diving SM comfortably there.

I get pissed when people take new gear configurations and equipment into the cave environment without some level of confort before hand... there's lots of beat to **** cave because of that.

But how much time can you really spend teaching non cave skills in SM? I don't mean that in a sarcastic way, but what do you spend the time doing?

Here's 5 minutes into my first SM dive....

Maybe there's a course outline that can teach me more about this course. Right now I'm just struggling to figure out what you spend 2 days doing. With an off the shelf Sm rig, you're essentially naturally trimmed out, are you not? Now, I'll admit that once I went towards making my own unit, I had to dick around in the pool quite a bit testing things...but I don't think that type of thing is what people are showing up to PADI courses with.

 

[Docc]

I think his death was inevitable .

Unless the Second Coming occurs, ALL deaths are inevitable. Some people just accelerate more rapidly toward their death than others, whether by design or just by sheer stupidity.

 

[LiteHedded]

did this guy have any deco training? why did he need two tanks in the first place?

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

But how much time can you really spend teaching non cave skills in SM? I don't mean that in a sarcastic way, but what do you spend the time doing?

Maybe there's a course outline that can teach me more about this course. Right now I'm just struggling to figure out what you spend 2 days doing. With an off the shelf Sm rig, you're essentially naturally trimmed out, are you not? Now, I'll admit that once I went towards making my own unit, I had to dick around in the pool quite a bit testing things...but I don't think that type of thing is what people are showing up to PADI courses with.

Trimming out and junk I guess? I don't know, I didn't take it either. Some people take longer to get trimmed in SM. 5 minutes into my rig, I looked like ass. 2 hours into my first OW dive in SM, I looked like ass. Off the shelf rig too.

I imagine its as thorough as a Double's course, Drysuit course, or similar.

did this guy have any deco training? why did he need two tanks in the first place?

No deco training.



Did you do any dives in BM doubles in OW before going into a cave? I did.

 

[LiteHedded]

Trimming out and junk I guess? I don't know, I didn't take it either. Some people take longer to get trimmed in SM. 5 minutes into my rig, I looked like ass. 2 hours into my first OW dive in SM, I looked like ass. Off the shelf rig too.

I imagine its as thorough as a Double's course, Drysuit course, or similar.



No deco training.



Did you do any dives in BM doubles in OW before going into a cave? I did.

not really

 

[Fish-R-Man]

The accident analysis forum also supports their statement. It's mainstream.

I really don't understand why you seem to have a problem with OW divers using SM. There is no magic to it! Some friends and I played with the SM configuration back in the mid 70's as a better way to be able to move through heavy kelp. We did again later when we were using scooters to survey for abalone and urchins off the channel islands. The idea has been around for a long time. All of he guys that I know that were doing back then are still alive and somehow managed to not get stuck in some crack some where.....