General Vortex Incident Discussion

[ScubaSteve]

They might have known they were diving above their training, but they certainly thought they had enough knowledge to pull it off. Dunning-Kruger at its finest.

Could better training centered on truly developing diver skill and knowledge, augmented by solid equipment/gas choices and dive planning help people out? I certainly think so. I do not think that most cave classes are geared toward that. The end result is someone with a cert card who thinks they are at pretty good, when they aren't. I've seen this first hand on multiple occasions, and its kinda sad and tragic, a little.

But if Ben was trained to a standard at or above Agency requirements and he chose to pull this schat himself, then how is that the fault of his instructor? You seem to have placed blame on his instructor assuming that they did not train him well or warn him enough.......sometimes stupid is stupid. A dumbass is going to do whatever they want no matter what warnings an instructor gave them.

Setting the bar higher might improve the caliber of certified divers at each level but it will not prevent stupid people from doing stupid things.

 

[PfcAJ]

I really think that if Ben wasn't taught SM (esp since he apparently had cave ambitions), we wouldn't be having this discussion.

He was unskilled and unaware. Unaware of what it really takes to dive Vortex properly (since he thought he could do it himself and was a self proclaimed cave diver) and unskilled in SM diving (look at the videos). Could the instructor say "hey man, I'm glad you're interested in this stuff, but lets take it one thing at a time. I'll help you get good at cave diving, good at SM, and we'll work on this project together". Instead, he was taught half of the equation, and Ben thought he could fill in the blanks.

There was a chain of events that led to this, and a proper intervention could have saved his life. Same thing for Joe and Yessic, same thing for Bruce, same thing for all of the deaths we see. They are almost all preventable. Thats what bothers me. Preventable deaths.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Have there been any BM doubles (non-cave certified) divers killed in caves? Were the two at Eagles Nest a couple years ago not?

 

[ScubaSteve]

They are almost all preventable. Thats what bothers me. Preventable deaths.

And I think more often or not, the person who could easiest prevent the death, is the victim themselves since they are the one making the poor judgement call (which often leads to these situations).

 

[PfcAJ]

Have there been any BM doubles (non-cave certified) divers killed in caves? Were the two at Eagles Nest a couple years ago not?

I'm sure there have been. Off the top of m head, I can't think of a particular incident, however. I know there was a recent RB fatality there (EN), and a dual fatality of cave trained people diving a deep END (greater than 100').

That said, I think a non-cave certified diver in a big passage has a better shot as survival than a non-cave certified diver in a small passage.

And I think more often or not, the person who could easiest prevent the death, is the victim themselves since they are the one making the poor judgement call.

I agree, and I'm all for personal responsibility. I also think that we (as cave divers and those who know better) should keep a watchful eye and try to intervene.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I really think that if Ben wasn't taught SM (esp since he apparently had cave ambitions), we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Why? What basis do you have for this? Vortex is predominantly a BM cave.

 

[ucfdiver]

Joe and Yessic? People KNEW they were going to Wayne's World.

FWIW they "said" they were cleaning up trash in order to get the key.

Rich Courtney was Joe's instructor. He failed in in cavern...twice. After they got bent at Eagles Nest, Rich heard rumors and called him directly to ask if he was diving in overheads, which Joe told him that he was not, he had too much respect for his instructors to do that. Joe was also called out by friends that knew multiple times, I know of at least 2 people who approached him the month of his death. That's what we need to do as a community. It just didn't work that time.

I've heard rumors that Ben went into the cavern during class more than once and was reprimanded. I'm not sure that giving him a card (which boosts confidence) was a good decision.

Now, as for Yessic, I have issues here. His instructor had told someone that he couldn't frog kick at the time he passed class, but figured he would progress as he got more diving in. Too bad he didn't get more diving in, that frog kick would have been a nice tool, seeing how he died in a siltout.

 

[PfcAJ]

And who gave him the key?

 

[LiteHedded]

ben is probably reading this and laughing

 

[PfcAJ]

Why? What basis do you have for this? Vortex is predominantly a BM cave.

Because its a cave skill. I said that already