General Vortex Incident Discussion

[mrmccoy]

 

[DaleC]

Sheck should have backed off, but he was always chasing round numbers... the previous dive almost killed him, he should have just backed off and let it go.

He didn't and it killed him. That doesn't make him a stroke, but that does rather color my view of his advice... give advice, but don't follow it yourself... not a good plan.

There are two types of people in the world (ok there's a lot more than two); Those who are exploratory and the rest. The exploratory types may have (should have) a good grasp of the rules but they also know that at times they need to break some of them if they want to push the boundaries of the "known" further.

In mountaineering a very good example is Messner and Hablers ascent of Everest. Up until that point there were some very real "rules" for altitude climbing. One needed to engage in a staged seige ascent and one needed O2 above 8000m (the so called death zone). M & H broke both those rules against much criticism. If they had died they would have been considered fools by the establishment; instead Messner (who continued altitude climbing) is considered the greatest mountaineer of all time.

JJ and CM's 7 mile traverse of the Wakulla and Leon systems was done on rebreathers even though their agency frowns upon their use. If one of them had died in the attempt would they still be considered the elite or the victims of their own "violation" (as Sheck is).

As the narrator said in Braveheart "History is written by the victor".

Of course, the differences between them and this case is the grounding gained via a lot of experience and an intuitive understanding of which rules one can tamper with and which ones one can't.

 

[Dive-aholic]

So with 100's of caves in FL, if you've seen EVERYTHING else and feel the need to take that risk, then IMO it's calculated. Otherwise I still see it as a convenience thing, as I said.

I'm completely okay with that. I much prefer going into passages that see little to no traffic. From what I have heard, I've been in a few passages/systems that have seen less than 10 people. I've even been in some passages that no one has been in before me. And as long as most people think like you it will stay that way.

Sheck should have backed off, but he was always chasing round numbers... the previous dive almost killed him, he should have just backed off and let it go.

He didn't and it killed him. That doesn't make him a stroke, but that does rather color my view of his advice... give advice, but don't follow it yourself... not a good plan.

Sheck didn't give any advice he didn't follow. I believe the guideline you're referring to is Depth. Specifically, that was referring to diving too deep, which at the surface appears he violated his own guideline. However, at that time, we weren't breathing helium, so anything below 130' was too deep. Once helium came into practice in dives, the rule was modified to not diving deeper than what your gas allows. Sheck was breathing deep helium mixes during the dive he died on. So he wasn't violating that rule. He died because he was looking for 1000'. But even that wasn't a goal as in "I'm going to get definitely get there on this dive". He had done similar dives in the past where he didn't make it because it just wasn't going to happen that dive.

I started side mount diving before any side mount diving courses existed. I'm contemplating taking a side mount course to see what I may have missed along the way

Let's go dive sometime, Rick. Maybe we'll learn something from each other. Although, I'm guessing I'll learn more from you!

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

There are two types of people in the world (ok there's a lot more than two); Those who are exploratory and the rest. The exploratory types may have (should have) a good grasp of the rules but they also know that at times they need to break some of them if they want to push the boundaries of the "known" further.

In mountaineering a very good example is Messner and Hablers ascent of Everest. Up until that point there were some very real "rules" for altitude climbing. One needed to engage in a staged seige ascent and one needed O2 above 8000m (the so called death zone). M & H broke both those rules against much criticism. If they had died they would have been considered fools by the establishment; instead Messner (who continued altitude climbing) is considered the greatest mountaineer of all time.

JJ and CM's 7 mile traverse of the Wakulla and Leon systems was done on rebreathers even though their agency frowns upon their use. If one of them had died in the attempt would they still be considered the elite or the victims of their own "violation" (as Sheck is).

As the narrator said in Braveheart "History is written by the victor".

Of course, the differences between them and this case is the grounding gained via a lot of experience and an intuitive understanding of which rules one can tamper with and which ones one can't.

They don't frown upon the RB80 a PASCR Rebreather when needed which is what they used for that dive, in fact I believe that GUE even has a class teaching them. On the other hand, they do indeed frown upon the use of CCR Rebreathers. Also, the WKPP and GUE are not the same thing.

 

[DaleC]

I was just making a general point about rules. Of course their rebreathers weren't the wrong kind of rebreathers just like the Infinity harness isn't really the wrong kind of adjustable harness

And I know the WKPP isn't GUE but I think JJ has something to do with GUE... maybe.

Either focus on the idea expressed or find a way to dismiss it by negating a detail. That's why people usually only reinforce their own opinions and rarely learn anything new in discussions.

 

[ucfdiver]

On the other hand, they do indeed frown upon the use of CCR Rebreathers.

Actually JJ admitted on TDS that there's projects where even he would use one. It's just about being risk aware.

 

[Hetland]

So I've been reading elsewhere that at the back of the cave at Vortex, there is a 50ft vertical wall of sand that's essentially held back by the flow from the spring. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

So I've been reading elsewhere that at the back of the cave at Vortex, there is a 50ft vertical wall of sand that's essentially held back by the flow from the spring. Can anyone confirm this?

There is a big wall of sand and clay, I don't know about the flow holding it. Flow would need to be a constant and we know flow rates vary. This is the same place I mentioned earlier about collapses, if that area did collapse we would have known it. The spring would have shown signs of this and last time it made the cave impassible. Took Eduardo a week to open up the restriction to the blue room.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

The sand slides at variable amounts, and I would say the flow holds it back. Sand could slide there without anyone knowing. If the whole damned thing washed out, that'd be one thing, but a smaller slide(still a considerable amount of sand) could be almost unrecognizable. Thats actually not incredibly uncommon in different caves, definately something I've learned to recognize as a potential hazard. There's actually another sand hill further into the system that I could see sliding as well, its beyond the pvc pipe and pretty much the extent of where I'm willing to go in vortex due to depth(150' at that point) and where the passage gets very restrictive. Neither one of these sand hills are what I'd consider the back of the cave(the back half, sure)... and I don't know whats beyond aside from what I hear, grindingly low passage, silt/mud/clay, narrow, etc.

 

[vshearer]

Maybe attach a camera to an eel?