Full foot fins: Excel vs. Superchannel

[danvolker]

Dan, this test isn't done to find the fastest fin in the world. There are 18 fins chosen for the test and they are just comparing these fins. I think you just misunderstood the goal.

So you can blame the magazine only if the comparison is wrong between the tested fins. That's why I asked if Superchannel is really better than Avanti Excel (both fins are reviewed in the test)

Hasbi,
Since the magazine chooses massively inferior equipment, in return for advertising revenue, I think I will still blame them for being an advertorial publication. Even if the 18 fins tested WERE actually fins you needed compared, the last place on earth you would want to have handling the testing, is a group as prostituted as this magazine. For years they have been testing split fins, and claiming them to be great fins, yet in real ocean currents, they are constantly shown to be pathetic should you need to swim at an angle somewhat sideways to the main current. The pool tests are a circle jerk, and they should NOT be given any credibility.
You need to demo the fins you are interested in yourself, in challenging ocean conditions.
Do not trust the advertorial testing.

Dan V
p.s.
If you are not a diver, and can not dive, the the information in rodales should be just fine for you

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

On the other hand, Although I have been making both working and pleasure dives with my freedive fins the last year, I am shopping for a pair of Mares full foot dive fins.

The fact is Mares makes some of the best fins in scuba diving, Freedive fins are not for most scuba divers, or even most scuba dives for a majority of divers. Yes, for most divers the Superchannels are better, but it has also been shown that the differences in their product line are not always in line with the price difference. For many divers cheap Avanti's are just as good as expensive Avanti's.

 

[danvolker]

On the other hand, Although I have been making both working and pleasure dives with my freedive fins the last year, I am shopping for a pair of Mares full foot dive fins.

The fact is Mares makes some of the best fins in scuba diving, Freedive fins are not for most scuba divers, or even most scuba dives for a majority of divers.

Mares "is" better than most mfg's at making fins. The "reason" freedive fins are not used by most divers, has much more to do with pervasive attitudes in the dive industry, about "how you teach someone to dive, and what gear to start them in". In order for freedve fins to gain the dominance they deserve, you would need to actually teach REAL bouyancy and perfect trim to new divers, so that they naturally swim flat/horizontal....., and if they need to get their heads closer to macro life, they inflate the wing/bc a little, so that they can maintain a fin-up, head slightly lower posture while swimming close to the bottom ( again, for slow motion macro level diving). But since they would have been taght to choose a Bc and gear properly for ultra low drag, they would immediately feel the advantage of a freediving kick and glide, given the required coordination for the fins.....which brings up one more point--so many brand new divers begin with no coordination, and never end up with any real diving coordination. Some could never have it, some could be taught to kick properly, if the instructor "knew" how to use freedive fin techniques. Again, most DO NOT. The sad thing here, is that because of failures in instruction and dive shop gear choices, most new divers are started with bogus gear, and poor training--just the minimum to get by. This is confirmed by the huge concentration of brand new divers swimming HEAD UP, FEET DOWN ( totally the instructors fault for not pushing them into a proper BC/wing choice, and not configuring weighting properly, or teaching then proper trim techniques)...and punctuated by all the conversations you hear about how so and so's fins are too negative, and that they need more bouyant fins--when all they need is different weighting on their body to get the torso heavier, and the waiste area lighter.

You have countless boat captains that like to get "righteous" about how the divers on their boat should not be using freedive fins over the delicate corals on some dive areas, but this stupidity is about confusing terrible technique and bouyancy/trim control, with choice of fins. A scuba diver with DIR style trim, can easily use freedive fins over delicate corals, and cause zero damage..and still enjoy the freedive fin superiority while moveing from location to location, acorss whatever larger spaces the divers need to cross over.

Walking with fins on aboard the charter boat is also harder for a brand new diver, as there is MORE to maneuver. It is easy with practice, just harder the first few times..and you buy the fins for swimming anyway, NOT for walking.

You could ask a new diver to honestly assess whether they are a well coordinated person, or NOT....If the answer is NOT, then the choice of fins might reasonabbly be along the lines of the Superchannels or Avantis....if they say, "yes", I am well coordinated, and learn most sports skills easily", then they should be pushed into freedive fins, given an instructor with the requisite knowledge and skills with freediving fins.

Regards,
Dan Volker

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

if they say, "yes", I am well coordinated, and learn most sports skills easily", then they should be pushed into freedive fins, given an instructor with the requisite knowledge and skills with freediving fins.

Another example of the dreaded ScubaBoard virus; no matter what a new diver wants or needs many SB'ers think they should be pushed into the gear said SB'er thinks is best.

Just like I think SB'ers compromise less than 1% of total worldwide scuba divers, I also think that's about the same percentage of worldwide scuba divers who should scuba dive with freedive fins.

IMHO, if you are not a freediver already, buying freedive fins to scuba dive with is silly. Speaking of silly; even an experienced freediver who works as a recreational scuba instructor/guide in cavern/lava tube country is probably only using freedive fins for reasons other than "what is the best tool for the job?"

Look at me! I'm different!​

 

[danvolker]

Another example of the dreaded ScubaBoard virus; no matter what a new diver wants or needs many SB'ers think they should be pushed into the gear said SB'er thinks is best.

Just like I think SB'ers compromise less than 1% of total worldwide scuba divers, I also think that's about the same percentage of worldwide scuba divers who should scuba dive with freedive fins.

IMHO, if you are not a freediver already, buying freedive fins to scuba dive with is silly. Speaking of silly; even an experienced freediver who works as a recreational scuba instructor/guide in cavern/lava tube country is probably only using freedive fins for reasons other than "what is the best tool for the job?"

Look at me! I'm different!​

I'm sure the dive industry would agree with you in this. However, I do not trust an advertising driven market--the 99% you attribute to "traditional" gear choices have been largely "suckered" into poor gear choices at first c-card, to be followed by several more interations of poor gear choices puched on them by stores directing their instructors. Capitialism at it's worst.
Divers who "tune in" to Scubaboard, can at least get different perspectives, from real divers with zero monetary gain at stake.
Even more important, divers here on scuba board can dive with scuba-boarders they hear things from, and determine first hand if the ideas or information is true.

Anything I say, I will back up with proof. The fin issue has always annoyed me..the way dive shops always want to "push" crappy fins to new divers, and the way they are aided by the dive magazines. I'm in the mood to shake this up a little, and considering I can offer free boat trips, free use of high end freedive fins, and some of the best diving in America off of Palm Beach, I think I can make a mess of Dive Industry fin propaganda .....at least to people that read Scubaboard

Regards,
Dan

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Dan, have you noticed Cressi's push to sell freedive fins to scuba divers? All I see from them are scuba fin ads for scuba divers and freedive fin ads for freedivers. Could that lack of push be their acknowledgment that freedive fins do not make for happy satisfied scuba customers?

For 99% of scuba divers and 95% of snorkelers freedive fins are too much fin. Freedivers and freedivers who scuba are the only real customer base for freedive fins.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

However, I do not trust an advertising driven market--the 99% you attribute to "traditional" gear choices have been largely "suckered" into poor gear choices at first c-card, to be followed by several more interations of poor gear choices puched on them by stores directing their instructors. Capitialism at it's worst.

Now we are getting somewhere!!!

My 1% worldwide divers theory now expands due to your statements. I'm now saying that 1% of worldwide divers feel they were suckered by their certification dive shop to buy the wrong gear, and half those suckers (.5% worldwide divers) are the type that would spend much of the next decade blogging on SB about how the entire dive industry is a capatalist conspiracy.

That's the only way I can conceive why half the SB posts are so anti dive gear manufacturer. In this soft global economy we are going to have a hard time keeping the good dive gear manufacturers in business. Not only will you have to have a friend with a compressor, you will also need a friend with a tool and dye shop.

Just because all dive magazine tests are suspect does not mean some of the gear in those tests (and the coresponding ads) is not good gear; just don't buy it solely based on magazine tests! A $50 pair of Mares Avanti's will be enough fin for the majority of scuba divers in the world, from a right tool for the job perspective. A full foot $50 Avanti will cover both beach/boat scuba and snorkeling for many, many divers.

 

[David Wilson]

I agree that it's in nobody's interests for the range, and therefore the choice, of fins to be reduced. Everybody's different, with different swimming abilities, different body dimensions, different expectations, so there's little to be gained by pronouncing one type of fin to be best for all the world's SCUBA divers, snorkellers, freedivers, bodysurfers or competitive swimmers in training. Finding the best fins is a personal odyssey. Some fins will be found to be too stiff, others too floppy. Some will fit too tightly, others too loosely. Eventually, through extensive experimentation, most fin users will come to a conclusion about what type of fin works best for them. In the end, they may even chance upon a make and model that fits and works perfectly. At that "Hallelujah" or "Eureka" moment, they would be most ill-advised, however, to conclude, and to shout from the roof tops, that their "perfect" fin must also be the best fin for everybody else. Like shoes, fins remain very personal items of wearing apparel. I learned to snorkel back in the 1960s using simple rubber full-foot fins and as a satisfied customer of such fins then and now I wouldn't dream of snorkelling with any other kind of fin. I'm irritated by the fact that no manufacturer in my own country now makes them. I could rail against the petroleum industry that created the substitute synthetic fin materials that I so dislike. However, there is no need to be annoyed as the siren voices about the eventual disappearance of all-rubber full-foot fins from the market have proved unfounded. About 80 different models of such fins are still in production worldwide, they're relatively cheap (often less than $50) and they've even generated a new market among competitive swimmers in training. Am I advising everybody else to follow my example? Absolutely not. You must complete your own fin odyssey, nobody else can tell you what's best for you, and you alone. Because what they consider to be the worst kind of fin (for them), may well be the best kind of fin for you. It's not just about science and technology, it's also about fashion and culture, and above all experience, and albeit subjective, individual judgement. Vive la différence and long live choice when it comes to fins - and any other kind of diving/snorkelling/freediving gear for that matter.

 

[danvolker]

Dan, have you noticed Cressi's push to sell freedive fins to scuba divers? All I see from them are scuba fin ads for scuba divers and freedive fin ads for freedivers. Could that lack of push be their acknowledgment that freedive fins do not make for happy satisfied scuba customers?

For 99% of scuba divers and 95% of snorkelers freedive fins are too much fin. Freedivers and freedivers who scuba are the only real customer base for freedive fins.

I think I covered this in previous posts...without the dive stores and instrctors pushing/suggesting the fins to new customers, there would be no hope for Cressi in expanding their market for freedive fins into scuba divers. As most instructors do not know how to kick freedive fins, and most stores do not carry a useful inventory of freedive fins ( an entire range of full foot sizes) plus the range of extremely soft to medium soft fins( 10 meter fins to 30 meter fins).
DanV

 

[danvolker]

Now we are getting somewhere!!!

My 1% worldwide divers theory now expands due to your statements. I'm now saying that 1% of worldwide divers feel they were suckered by their certification dive shop to buy the wrong gear, and half those suckers (.5% worldwide divers) are the type that would spend much of the next decade blogging on SB about how the entire dive industry is a capatalist conspiracy.

You are making some wildly incorrect assumptions about my "wild" ideas
First, I am hardly part of a anti-capitalist mindset--- I drive a Gallardo, and live a materially complete life...I worked hard to get where I am, and it was entirely entrepreneurial...However, when I see people that are extremely passionate about an activity like diving, being taken advantage of by a culture of propaganda and profit based "mentoring", I get pissed. And to be clear, real mentoring is close to the opposite of what they actually get.

I don't know anything about the dive operation you are involved with in Hawaai. I do know alot about the dive operations throughout South Florida--where I have been diving since the mid-80's. I was active in helping Palm Beach diving get on the map, back in the early 90's, both with traditional magazine ads, and with my creation of www.sfdj.com ( the first magazine on the Internet... I created it in 1993). From working with so many dive boats and dive shops, and after diving on so many boats over the last few decades, I do know how the shops operate, and how and why they sell what they sell.


Here are a few more reasons freedive fins do not sell.

• Dive shops spend far less on inventory, if they can convince divers to purchase one size or 2 size fits all fins--i.e., open heel fins.
• Freedive fins need to be purchase in individual shoe sizes, as the full foot pocket is supposed to fit perfectly like a high end Running shoe, for optimal power transfer while finning. This costs the dive shop a fortune in exrtra inventory--and does not even address the 3 or 4 stiffness choices on freedive fin blades, which increases the inventory cost even more. However, the shops that do sell this way, offer their client base a much better final solution.
• Most dive instructors do not know how to kick freedive fins properly. Most testers at dive magazines have no idea how to kick freedive fins, so even if a test was not biased due to magazine advertising needs, the tester's ability would be. If an instructor can not teach kicking the fin, and magazine ads have no articles on proper freedve fin technique, there is small liklihood freedive fins are going to get pushed in stores.
• Dive stores want their instructors to push their high profit items, and to WEAR the high profit gear so the students will have this reinforcing their awareness.
• Most new divers are not well trained, and walking in the dive boat with fins on is already hard for many of them...walking with freedive fins is harder, and this scares the instructors--too many failures of skills throws off the class.
• Most instructors do not teach proper weighting and trim, so most divers end up swimming head up and feet down--largely from too much weight located near their waiste, instead of higher up on the torso. This serious mistake, makes long fins even more dangerous to the bottom coral.

I could go on for a long time with this, if you want me to.....this are real issues, not the mad blogging with no backup you were alluding to.

Regards,
Dan V

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