Info What is the "best" fin?

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I read many reviews both here on this forum and other places before I settled for the Go Sport (more for overall packing length but not entirely), and not one review asserted that the Novas are good for Frog Kick, but only great for flutter - a reason why I rejected them. So is your comment about the Nova Gorillas or the original Nova?

On my recent trip last month, a diver was unhappy with his FFs that he got to the point that he asked for advise about his kicking technique, and was advised to get rid of them.
Nova’s work ok for frog kick, short stiffish fins work better, Nova gorilla works better than regular Nova for frog kicks but give up some of the ease of flutter kicks in a trade off. The new “Super Nova” is supposed to work better for both, I have a pair coming so I can see for myself, they seem to be wintering in the Midwest at the moment but still scheduled to delivery Friday.

the GoSport is a nice light short wide fin, they perform more like jet fins.

each type of fin will usually require some adjustment in technique for optimal performance, while the GoSport and jet/ eddy etc can use the same technique things like the Nova call for a different kick, the blade continues to work for a moment after your legs finish the stroke.

you have to spend a lot of time figuring out the best kick for you and what ever fin you’re using, the FF is very unique in what kick works, they don’t give a lot of feedback to your legs but if you pay attention to the surroundings you will notice that the do offer propulsion.
 
The new “Super Nova” is supposed to work better for both, I have a pair coming so I can see for myself

Ooooh, you broke down and getting one now? 🙂

Can't wait for your review.
 
Ooooh, you broke down and getting one now? 🙂

Can't wait for your review.
I did, crappy weather and don’t go dive conditions make me buy things, found a discount from an old contact which offset the recent price increase.
 
That means nothing to me. Width? Height?
Right now my M8.5 fits comfortably in my Large Deep 6 or L DR XT.....with either a TUSA hard-sole bootie or a pair of Converse Chuck Taylors. But it looks like I'll bounce around inside your L foot pocket.

For what it's worth, here are some dims of the Large,, expect you would need a big bootie, but I can't really suggest this size Large for you. This pic is also now posted at the online manual at truefintechnical. Truefin has a 60 day no questions return policy,, lifetime guaranty,,, but problem is return shipping is probably $30, guessing..
 

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For what it's worth, here are some dims of the Large,, expect you would need a big bootie, but I can't really suggest this size Large for you. This pic is also now posted at the online manual at truefintechnical. Truefin has a 60 day no questions return policy,, lifetime guaranty,,, but problem is return shipping is probably $30, guessing..
Thanks. Yup, too big.
 
@tursiops you made an excellent work with the available experimental data.
What follows is not based on such large set of experiments, so please, take it with a grain of salt.
Also consider my background: on one side I have a PhD in Applied Physics, and I did teach thermo fluid dynamics in postgraduate engineering courses for 15 years.
On the other side, I am a finned swimming instructor and I used to train athlets in that sport.
Using fins for propulsion is the most efficient self-propulsion technique for an human in water.
Propulsion means producing a thrust which moves the body in the opposite direction. But in some cases the thrust is not causing motion, it can be used for remaining buoyant whilst overweighted, for example. So the thrust not necessarily converts to power (power is the product of force×speed - if there is no speed, power is zero).
The performances of such a propulsion technique can be evaluated in three ways:
- thrust produced
- speed obtained
- efficiency
Let's focus in this post on the latter. How we define efficiency?
The most commonly accepted definition is energetical efficiency: the ratio between the output power over the consummed power.
We know that the output power is given by thrust×speed. At constant speed, thrust must be equal to the drag force, which depends mostly on the hydrodynamic of the human body. Which means the cross-section area A and the Cx, both multiplied by the square of speed.
So we have this expression for the power produced:
Wout = 1/2×rho×A×Cx×v^3
Changing fins usually affects only speed v, all other factors are substantially unchanged.
The consummed power is the energy burned by the muscles involved in the kicking action in one second.
This is reasonably well correlated with oxygen consumption, which can be measured.
So the correct way of estimating efficiency is to compute the ratio beteeen these two powers.
One simple way to simplify the problem is to fix the speed v, making Wout constant, and measuring Win by measuring oxygen consumption.
This however is somewhat biased, as swimmers of different muscolar capability could produce much larger Win, and so they could drive longer, stiffer fins.
On the other side, larger athlets produce more power, but have larger ceoss-section and often cannot get the same good Cx as leaner athlets (or females)
Also the leg geometry affects performances, as this changes the angle of attack and the trajectory of fins while kicking.
So the data you processed, albeit looking "objective", are in reality entirely biased.
The whole approach of ginding "the more efficient fin" is wrong.
The correct approach is the following:
Here I have an athlet with a given mass, cross-section area, leg geometry and muscular capability. What is the fin allowing him to get the best performances?
I mean one of these three targets:
- the maximum thrust for a given time
- the maximum speed over a given distance
- the maximum efficiency, allowing him to swim longer with a single breath.
The answers in general are three very different fins.
Of course monofins are superior, but let stay with two separate fins.
Regarding the third goal (efficiency) for most athlets with proper training and years of practice the optimal fins are very elastic (carbon fiber), long and flexible, and have little, zero or even positive slope.
The exact values of stiffness, length and blade angle must be carefully tuned for each athlet, and could change based on the distance to cover and for vertical or horizontal underwater swimming, or for surface swimming (the latter usually asking for a significantly positive blade angle).
Evaluating the performance is simple when working on a single athlet: you repeat several times the same test, measuring speed or distance traveled, and following the feedback from the athlet. At the time I was usually able to define and build the optimal fin(s) with a dozen attempts.
Please note that each attempt can cost between 200 and 1000 USD.
The best, more experienced finned swimming instructors claim to define the optimal fin(s) with just 5-6 attempts.
So in conclusion the search for a single "best" fin is wrong.
Free divers and finned swimming athlets under continuous training can make a very good use of their personally-tuned, expensive fiber carbon fins.
For occasional divers or novices, much shorter and more flexible fins, with a negative blade angle, are preferable, avoiding cramps and over-exertion. They are of course less efficient, but efficiency is of no value when your legs are blocked by cramps, or your lungs and heart cannot provide all the oxygen burned by your muscles.
 
@tursiops you made an excellent work with the available experimental data.
What follows is not based on such large set of experiments, so please, take it with a grain of salt.
Also consider my background: on one side I have a PhD in Applied Physics, and I did teach thermo fluid dynamics in postgraduate engineering courses for 15 years.
On the other side, I am a finned swimming instructor and I used to train athlets in that sport.
Using fins for propulsion is the most efficient self-propulsion technique for an human in water.
Propulsion means producing a thrust which moves the body in the opposite direction. But in some cases the thrust is not causing motion, it can be used for remaining buoyant whilst overweighted, for example. So the thrust not necessarily converts to power (power is the product of force×speed - if there is no speed, power is zero).
The performances of such a propulsion technique can be evaluated in three ways:
- thrust produced
- speed obtained
- efficiency
Let's focus in this post on the latter. How we define efficiency?
The most commonly accepted definition is energetical efficiency: the ratio between the output power over the consummed power.
We know that the output power is given by thrust×speed. At constant speed, thrust must be equal to the drag force, which depends mostly on the hydrodynamic of the human body. Which means the cross-section area A and the Cx, both multiplied by the square of speed.
So we have this expression for the power produced:
Wout = 1/2×rho×A×Cx×v^3
Changing fins usually affects only speed v, all other factors are substantially unchanged.
The consummed power is the energy burned by the muscles involved in the kicking action in one second.
This is reasonably well correlated with oxygen consumption, which can be measured.
So the correct way of estimating efficiency is to compute the ratio beteeen these two powers.
One simple way to simplify the problem is to fix the speed v, making Wout constant, and measuring Win by measuring oxygen consumption.
This however is somewhat biased, as swimmers of different muscolar capability could produce much larger Win, and so they could drive longer, stiffer fins.
On the other side, larger athlets produce more power, but have larger ceoss-section and often cannot get the same good Cx as leaner athlets (or females)
Also the leg geometry affects performances, as this changes the angle of attack and the trajectory of fins while kicking.
So the data you processed, albeit looking "objective", are in reality entirely biased.
The whole approach of ginding "the more efficient fin" is wrong.
The correct approach is the following:
Here I have an athlet with a given mass, cross-section area, leg geometry and muscular capability. What is the fin allowing him to get the best performances?
I mean one of these three targets:
- the maximum thrust for a given time
- the maximum speed over a given distance
- the maximum efficiency, allowing him to swim longer with a single breath.
The answers in general are three very different fins.
Of course monofins are superior, but let stay with two separate fins.
Regarding the third goal (efficiency) for most athlets with proper training and years of practice the optimal fins are very elastic (carbon fiber), long and flexible, and have little, zero or even positive slope.
The exact values of stiffness, length and blade angle must be carefully tuned for each athlet, and could change based on the distance to cover and for vertical or horizontal underwater swimming, or for surface swimming (the latter usually asking for a significantly positive blade angle).
Evaluating the performance is simple when working on a single athlet: you repeat several times the same test, measuring speed or distance traveled, and following the feedback from the athlet. At the time I was usually able to define and build the optimal fin(s) with a dozen attempts.
Please note that each attempt can cost between 200 and 1000 USD.
The best, more experienced finned swimming instructors claim to define the optimal fin(s) with just 5-6 attempts.
So in conclusion the search for a single "best" fin is wrong.
Free divers and finned swimming athlets under continuous training can make a very good use of their personally-tuned, expensive fiber carbon fins.
For occasional divers or novices, much shorter and more flexible fins, with a negative blade angle, are preferable, avoiding cramps and over-exertion. They are of course less efficient, but efficiency is of no value when your legs are blocked by cramps, or your lungs and heart cannot provide all the oxygen burned by your muscles.

Angelo,

You were working with a lot of athletes doing subjective test. That's all good of course, but involves a lot of testing with athletes getting tired, etc., and I'm curious what you think of the tests we conducted.

Regarding efficiency, we measured consumed power with a torque sensor (assumed to indicate a value proportional to the energy burned by muscles, units: kW or horsepower), and plotted that against fin thrust (assumed to be proportional to output power). So while refining the design, we minimized consumed power kW for given thrust values, and also captured fin thrust versus kicking frequency.

Swimming furthest underwater on a single breath of air was the goal while developing Truefin, with a side benefit that you tend to be underwater for more time due to a reduced rate of oxygen consumption for a given distance traveled. Essentially, you don't have to kick the fin as hard.

However, the one inaccuracy perhaps introduced with our machine test, is that it seems to me an unfair advantage is given to conventional fins because the output shaft torque sensor measuring consumed torque (consumed power calculated) does not account for the increased oxygen consumption that occurs when a conventional fin has to be kicked faster for the same thrust,,, i.e., the torque sensor doesn't care how fast the motor output shaft is rotating, it only senses torque (we calculate kW at given output shaft rpm values).

Anyway, looking at your background I was curious if what we did makes sense, and if you are aware of any other company or university in Europe (other than HERMES) performed any fin tests similar to what we did. The HERMES test apparatus involved - <For each swim fin, ankle force and hydromechanical efficiency (useful mechanical power output divided by mechanical power input delivered by the motors) were calculated. >

It seems the HERMES test had the same inherent inaccuracy that our test had, where we did not factor in the higher oxygen consumption that would occur in the real world with fins that required a faster kicking frequency.

A new system for analyzing swim fin propulsion based on human kinematic data

Regards,
Joe Maresh
 
Angelo,

You were working with a lot of athletes doing subjective test. That's all good of course, but involves a lot of testing with athletes getting tired, etc., and I'm curious what you think of the tests we conducted.

Regarding efficiency, we measured consumed power with a torque sensor (assumed to indicate a value proportional to the energy burned by muscles, units: kW or horsepower), and plotted that against fin thrust (assumed to be proportional to output power). So while refining the design, we minimized consumed power kW for given thrust values, and also captured fin thrust versus kicking frequency.

Swimming furthest underwater on a single breath of air was the goal while developing Truefin, with a side benefit that you tend to be underwater for more time due to a reduced rate of oxygen consumption for a given distance traveled. Essentially, you don't have to kick the fin as hard.

However, the one inaccuracy perhaps introduced with our machine test, is that it seems to me an unfair advantage is given to conventional fins because the output shaft torque sensor measuring consumed torque (consumed power calculated) does not account for the increased oxygen consumption that occurs when a conventional fin has to be kicked faster for the same thrust,,, i.e., the torque sensor doesn't care how fast the motor output shaft is rotating, it only senses torque (we calculate kW at given output shaft rpm values).

Anyway, looking at your background I was curious if what we did makes sense, and if you are aware of any other company or university in Europe (other than HERMES) performed any fin tests similar to what we did. The HERMES test apparatus involved - <For each swim fin, ankle force and hydromechanical efficiency (useful mechanical power output divided by mechanical power input delivered by the motors) were calculated. >

It seems the HERMES test had the same inherent inaccuracy that our test had, where we did not factor in the higher oxygen consumption that would occur in the real world with fins that required a faster kicking frequency.

A new system for analyzing swim fin propulsion based on human kinematic data

Regards,
Joe Maresh
Very interesting. In my early career I cooperated with Technisub, and I had the occasion to visit their labs in Genoa and to see in action their toroid-shaped fin testing apparatus, which you can see in a photo here below:
26-Beltrani-preview.jpg

The system was equipped both with force AND displacement sensors, emulating a complete flutter kick, and measuring the real power being transferred.
This was around 1980. The guy on the left is Luigi Ferraro, the founder of Technisub and the inventor of the Cressi Rondine fins. The guy on the right was a young engineer named Ganni Beltrani, you find his name on a number of Technisub's patents, including the one of the famous Ala fins, which were the main results of those hydrodynamics experiments.
Those guys gave me as a gift one of the first pairs of Ala fins, which were still all-rubber, but probably touched the best efficiency available with that material. My pair was the open-heel version with straps (Ala Pro), my wife got a pair of closed-heel Ala fins.
We, and a couple of other instructors, were given them to be tested in the sea, because also those guys were not thrusting 100% their super-technological apparatus.
I did not have access to their experimental results, we were simply asked to compare those fins with their corresponding competitor's fins (the Scubarpo Jetfin in my case, the Cressi Rondine V in case of my wife).
After this, we were told that the results of real-life tests were slightly divergent from those with the testing apparatus. I am not aware of further experiments with artificial testing systems for fins. But I have read some papers regarding biomechanics of legs, and how individual differences in biomechanics require different actuators for several sports, including cycling and finned-swimming.
My conclusion is that these methods based on artificial kicking systems were an attempt which was very advanced 40 years ago, but they went off fashion when more knowledge about human biomechanics was gained, shifting the focus to what happen inside the human body instead of what happens along the fin's blade.
 
Very interesting. In my early career I cooperated with Technisub, and I had the occasion to visit their labs in Genoa and to see in action their toroid-shaped fin testing apparatus, which you can see in a photo here below:
26-Beltrani-preview.jpg

The system was equipped both with force AND displacement sensors, emulating a complete flutter kick, and measuring the real power being transferred.
This was around 1980. The guy on the left is Luigi Ferraro, the founder of Technisub and the inventor of the Cressi Rondine fins. The guy on the right was a young engineer named Ganni Beltrani, you find his name on a number of Technisub's patents, including the one of the famous Ala fins, which were the main results of those hydrodynamics experiments.
Those guys gave me as a gift one of the first pairs of Ala fins, which were still all-rubber, but probably touched the best efficiency available with that material. My pair was the open-heel version with straps, my wife got a pair of closed-heel Ala fins.
We, and a couple of other instructors, were given them to be tested in the sea, because also those guys were not thrusting 100% their super-technological apparatus.
I did not have access to their experimental results, we were simply asked to compare those fins with their corresponding competitor's fins (the Scubarpo Jetfin in my case, the Cressi Rondine V in case of my wife).
After this, we were told that the results of real-life tests were slightly divergent from those with the testing apparatus. I am not aware of further experiments with artificial testing systems for fins. But I have read some papers regarding biomechanics of legs, and how individual differences in biomechanics require different actuators for several sports, including cycling and finned-swimming.
My conclusion is that these methods based on artificial kicking systems were an attempt which was very advanced 40 years ago, but they went off fashion when more knowledge about human biomechanics was gained, shifting the focus to what happen inside the human body instead of what happens along the fin's blade.
Thanks. I guess efficiency based upon VO2 is then still considered the holy grail, particularly at high exertion levels. I would actually tend to agree with that, but at low exertion levels as pointed out by Pendergast et al., VO2 tests are evidently unreliable, but I've never seen data to know where that threshold is. I'm guessing 20 kicks per minute. I have reviewed tests based upon underwater speed tests, as well as static flutter finning while pulling against a dynamometer or scale, but when you get comparative results which are close I wouldn't know how much of a factor variability of muscle performance plays in the analysis, so I generally consider that data to be subjective, however you can certainly get a general idea with those tests about relative performance. One advantage with a machine equipped with sensors is it produces just cold hard data, and it is relatively easy to obtain once you are set up. When you test several dozen fins in random orders, and then repeat the machine tests in different orders, you see predicable data which is what I would call objective data about how the fin blade performs in the water.
 
Thanks. I guess efficiency based upon VO2 is then still considered the holy grail, particularly at high exertion levels. I would actually tend to agree with that, but at low exertion levels as pointed out by Pendergast et al., VO2 tests are evidently unreliable, but I've never seen data to know where that threshold is. I'm guessing 20 kicks per minute. I have reviewed tests based upon underwater speed tests, as well as static flutter finning while pulling against a dynamometer or scale, but when you get comparative results which are close I wouldn't know how much of a factor variability of muscle performance plays in the analysis, so I generally consider that data to be subjective, however you can certainly get a general idea with those tests about relative performance. One advantage with a machine equipped with sensors is it produces just cold hard data, and it is relatively easy to obtain once you are set up. When you test several dozen fins in random orders, and then repeat the machine tests in different orders, you see predicable data which is what I would call objective data about how the fin blade performs in the water.
There is a difference according to whether or not the fin is actually moving through the water, versus being held statically and just churning unmoving water. The flow patterns over the fin are critical to its performance, so the fin needs to be moving through the water as it kicks, with the speed of movement depending on the fin, the kick, etc. Does your machine do that?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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