Ft. Lauderdale 11/12 The Sea Empress AOW

[AXL72]

I have to admit that one of my posts on this topic may have been a bit hasty and driven by emotion based on my experiences with buddies not willing or unsure about having to call a dive when one is low on air compared to what is required to make it back to the surface and boat saefly.

In all honesty, If I did not pay attention to where the wreck was at after loosing sight of it, then I too may have hung with the instructors. I would be very much motivated to get back to the anchor/mooring/buoy line in V's seastate and water current conditions, as opposed to trying to simply get to the obvious source of air (ie surface) without any anchored reference line. I would only go for the obvious source of air if I knew that my buddy and others in the group would not have enough air to share. Even then, I would venture to say that a personal line and float tube serving as a reference line would be the proper way to ascend. However, this poses a challenge on a seabed that is absent of any wreck piece to anchor onto. The risk of floating off into the current and being lost in open water may have been a bit high for V's circumstance.

My previous posts may work well in warm carribean day diving, but probably would not work very well in a rough seas night dive circumstance. However, waving dive light or simply having a personal light/beacon at night might make you more visable than your floating head and flaling arms during the day.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The whole point of rock bottom is to calculate the air supply necessary to get you and your buddy to the surface with stops in event of one of you having an OOA due to equipment failure.

You gave figures for your normal ascent assuming both you (and your buddy) are in good shape.

Lets run your figures again based on the scenario where Capt Murphy comes calling on you, and your buddy suddenly has equipment failure.

Normal ascent from 90ft (with 3 min stop) = 750-400 = 350 psi used

Now x2 because you are supporting your buddy's air consumption = 2x350 = 700psi

So you now arrive back at the boat with 50 psi. You might be happy with a margin that thin, but I wouldn't be.



Now factor in the fact that you're stressed because it's your first night dive, you have equipment failure, and conditions are less than ideal. So your SAC rates jump by 50% over normal (this is just an example your SAC may vary....)

Total air usage = 700 x 1.5 = 1050 psi

Now given all of the above do you still think 1000 psi is enough ?

If my buddy were to have a failure then yes it could be a problem and I see your point and agree. I was saying tho that in the event that was what I had left and no one else had a real problem then that is more than enough for a safe ascent. I normally do thirds tho where I want to arrive back at the boat with 400-500 psi. This means that out of a good fill of 3300 psi I have say 2900psi I can use for the dive. Therefore on a say dive with mild current I go into the current til I reach my turn pressure which is around 950psi used plus a little. I've therefore got 1950 left for return and ascent. Which I know is more than enough for me with a considerable margin of safety. Now if my buddy has a failure then things change. considerably. First the safety stop may be negated. A normal ascent of 30 ft a minute may also be negated and 60 ft pm more like it. First rule of rescue is to insure your own survival and well being. It may be necessary for buddy to do a cesa from 30 ft or so. Also I do not normally calculate air usage based on my buddy breathing off my air. If that happens then it's an emergency situation which calls for emergency measures. The scenario given tho was no one had a failure. There was sufficient air to do an ascent safely, away from the group, but still safely. Again that's why having proper gear for conditions is so important. Do I really need my dive alert, light and sausage on every dive? No, but I still carry them. I also carry a bag and reel on every dive should I have to shoot one for an emergency up line. In the event I have to surface away from the group I don't have to waste time and air getting to a safe place(in this case the surface). Does my buddy carry the same stuff? Not always as I dive with different people but being a solo diver I always do and if I don't for some reason carry one of those things my buddy better or we do not go. I'm a firm believer now that along with mask, fins, boots, and snorkel, a signaling device of some kind should be required personal gear. I'm getting my son a new bc for Christmas, he's got a loud whistle already and wants a new knife,but after me being on this board awhile, he's not getting the knife, but instead a safety sausage.

 

[Vayu]

A normal ascent of 30 ft a minute may also be negated and 60 ft pm more like it.

I really doubt that this is an acceptable alternative to anyone. Contingency planning for your buddy seems like it would be much safer and easier to do. 60' per minute ascent rate would be difficult to accurately control not to mention the inherit hazards it brings to any deep dive. At the end of that dive - regardless of your physiology - it is likely you would have some variety of illness not easily shrugged off in the open water. I am no expert on gas management but I am interested in learning more. Emergency situations call for advanced planning and training. It is true that survival is the highest morality however the measures suggested seem somewhat counterproductive to an OOA emergency.

Aside from that, I would like to see someone try to get their buddy off of their secondary regulator after air sharing has begun. It is likely both buddies would be looking at a substantial swimming ascent at that point.

-V

 

[Tienuts]

Vayu,

I have 10+ years as a paramedic, as well as a dive instructor. I can tell just from reading your post, your chest pains were most likely anxiety related, brought on by the stressors of your dive.

Also having dove the Sea Emporer about 70 times, you cannot get deeper then 72 feet without a shovel. The deepest part of the wreck is 72 feet at the sand, with the deck at 50 or so.

Conditions underwater can change, therefore you should not adhere to your plan so rigidly. As said in a previous post, how low would you have let your air dwindle down to, following the other divers and instructors? If you are OW certified, you should be able to ascend on your own.

In addition, diving is a dnagerous activity, and sometimes requires lengthy swims, and exertion. You most likely signed a waiver which stated this before the boat left the dock. You should be in good enough shape to do a surface swim.

In your defense, I am farmiliar with the dive operation I suspect you went out on. This female boat driver, (or Captain as we normally call them) once ran over and snagged my drift flag, yanking it out of my hand while I was on a drift dive.

 

[DandyDon]

<edit> Changed my mind - poor statement

 

[Vayu]

I have 10+ years as a paramedic, as well as a dive instructor. I can tell just from reading your post, your chest pains were most likely anxiety related, brought on by the stressors of your dive.

Thats funny, because i've never met someone in the medical field who can make a diagnosis from nothing more than a description. Both DAN and my physician have a few ideas about what may have caused the symptoms, but neither of them went with anxiety.

I wasn't diving with a shovel. Having been in the ocean since I was a kid, I can tell that conditions change quickly. Have you been on the emperor since the hurricanes, in a storm, or made a survey of its perimeter? I think I'm going to rely on my gauges even if there was a margin of error instead of taking a websites profile for the site as gospel.


-V

 

[Tienuts]

Both DAN and my physician have a few ideas about what may have caused the symptoms, but neither of them went with anxiety.
-V

What was the diagnosis if you don't mind me asking?

By the way, I just dove, and tied off the descent line to the Sea Emporer yesterday.

 

[Vayu]

Actually, I do mind. Nothing against you tienuts, but i'm simply tired of explaining things. This thread was dead before multiple users with 1 post to their name started antagonizing me.

Thanks,

-V

 

[garyfotodiver]

Actually, I do mind. Nothing against you tienuts, but i'm simply tired of explaining things. This thread was dead before multiple users with 1 post to their name started antagonizing me.

Thanks,

-V

I suppose you then must include yourself in the above description. IMHO, your first post was antagonistic. You explained nothing.

The first rule of diving: "I am responsible for my actions." Learn it. You'll need it.

As a postscript; my 12 year-old daughter did the Sea Emeror on her third OW check-out dive.

 

[Vayu]

Gary,

Thanks for the input. As a postscript, I wouldn't let a 12 year old on SCUBA.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

What is a 12 year old doing at 72fsw anyway? All agencies have a depth limit of 40' for this age range and 60' for open water divers. With all this in mind, please save the lecture on scuba rules and have some respect.

-V