Ft. Lauderdale 11/12 The Sea Empress AOW

[DandyDon]

All I can say is that I was in the group that got left behind in all this drama...and it sucked!!!

Left behind, in the dark and a current - yeah, I bet that sucked a lot!!

I surfaced at the south end of the Cozumel channel once the one day that I have ever even heard of that current was heading south rather than north and saw my boat heading north away from me - for all I knew, home without me?! And I was headed for Belize. That is is indeed a sucky feeling, and I had a few hours of daylight left. In the dark - omg! I laid on my Dive Alert whistle, a nearby boat picked me up, and - mine was right back for me, but in my mind, it was bad. I can imagine how you must have felt.

I disagree with some others here in that I think that this thread has been well enough covered, all the possible lessons have been examined, and - you do not need to get sucked into playing witness on this story.

Welcome to ScubaBoard.com. Enjoy yourself here....

 

[Vayu]

Xxdivexx,

I don't know who you are but for the record I am sorry you guys were left behind because of me. I did not ask them to do that and I had assumed they would have gotten everyone on board before leaving. I'm pretty sure what happened in my group is somewhat of a mystery to you guys. I'm also pretty sure that the instructor you were with would not have let it get to the level that ours did. I know who she is and I am sure that she has a healthy respect for human life

Glad you got picked up and that the bullsharks didn't get ya,

-V

 

[uiscrazy]

This post is for those who are seeking more answers and details as to what ocurred that night. This post is written by a panel of students that also dove with Vayu but on the second boat.

First of all, it was 72' to the bottom (sand). How did you get to 74'? Did you bring a shovel?
Also, were you experiencing nitrogen narcossis?
You mentioned a "fatality," who was it?, because no such incidence was reported. Also, pertaining to the 3 people other than you that were supposedly "injured," what were their injuries? Or, are you just overexaggerating your story?
Once we were below the surface, the conditions were what you would expect from a night dive: small current, decent vis. You probably thought it was low vis because you were shinning to the open sea instead of the wreck.


Before we did our giant stride into the sea, the instructors, dms, and AOW candidates had agreed to bring attention the instructors and dms when we had 1800 psi left so that they can keep track of what our air consumption was.
Our limit for ascent was 1000psi, which would give us enough to do a safety stop and surface.

The seas were averaging 7'-10' that night. Who in their right mind would swimg out towards the boat? You would be easily swept away by the waves, considering the "fact" that you were tired and panicky. Before the dive, the instructors made it clear that we needed TWO dive lights (primary and backup) and a glowstick. The glowsticks served to distinguish AOW candidates from DMs and instructors.

We waited about 15 mins on the surface, if not more, and we shone our lights to get the attention of the boat (a pontoon boat, NOT a glass bottom boat). They responded and slowly started making their way towards us cautiously as to not hit any divers in the water. Once on the boat, we heard both captains from both boats discussing about the "chest pain" injury and that they had to leave after notifying EMS right away. The captain asked our captain to pick up the remaining group that was left behind to attend to the "dramatic" needs of Vayu.

The first thing taught in class was that being an AOW diver is about making your own decisions. You probably were not paying attention when this was taught. Therefore, the instructors present don't have the obligation to "babysit" you, but are there to give you support and answer any questions that you might have. Perhaps you should've asked more questions or pay more attention during lectures.

Lose the beanie and the gloves, the pool is heated to 85 degrees F. We're not ice diving here.

 

[Big Mike]

Several PROBLEM AREAS here, by my viewpoint.

#1...NO WAY I'm going out on a boat to dive in 6 or 7 or 8 foot waves! It is NOT going to be FUN, and that is why we dive, RIGHT??

#2...No safety gear??? On a NIGHT DIVE, I look like the "Creature from Black Lagoon", I have so much stuff hanging off of me! I take 3 dive lights with me (6 C cell lights); a STROBE (larger one...can see on surface for 2 miles); a safety sausage; whistle (probably worthless) in addition to my tank marker light. If I get separated on surface there is a much higher PROBABILITY someone will see me with this stuff!

#3...If you are an AIR HOG...HOOVER, etc. (like you said you are) and your buddy was too, then you should have signaled dive leader and BOTH you and buddy ascend. (I imagine they probably had 2000 + psi in their tanks and didn't want to go up. NO EXCUSE, but many people want to max bottom time at the risk of safety. It is easier for them to make that decision if it is NOT THEIR SAFETY being jeopardized!) Ascending with buddy would have been an easier alternative if BOTH of you had PROPER SAFETY EQUIP for night dive!

#4...Get BIGGER TANKS! I dive with AL100's. That then gives me an extra margin of air and makes me NOT THE LIMITING FACTOR for air. (Yes, I too am an AIR HOG!)

#5...Be ASSERTIVE. No one is going to look after YOUR SAFETY better than YOU SHOULD! (...assertive doesn't mean A..hole. Some people don't know the difference!)

#6...VOTE WITH YOUR FEET. I would have never gone out in 6 feet (I know some divers are not bothered by bigger waves and don't have trouble boarding the boat in them), even if I'd paid for the dive. Better to eat $60 dive fee than to be in hospital or morgue! I've gotten off boats before when I thought there was something not right (boat and/or buddy). You can replace $60.

#7...GET MORE EXPERIENCE before doing night dive in ocean!

#8...Find another dive shop, one that is more interested in safety.

#9...Get more experience!


Good Luck,

Mike

 

[Vayu]

I'm not going to argue with vayuiscrazy, but I will respond to a few points where I may have been misunderstood.

1. Students on the second boat were diving on a different wreck altogethor. I don't know how deep it is or how you have a good reading of the bottom on the sea emperor, but a 72' dive is still an 80' profile. I don't think I was narced, but who ever does?

2. The fatality I mentioned was in reference to the man who died shore diving a couple days after. See thread: http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=118957

3. 2 people on the first boat did a fast ascent from 60' and had to use the universities oxygen... but they were ok after recieving oxygen. A dm and an instructor followed them up too quickly but were thankfully not injured.

4. On our boat, 1800 psi was the point that we would turn around and ascend up the anchor line. We were still at depth and farther from the boat then ever when we hit 1000. For me, 1000 psi is not enough to make a safe ascent and a good safety stop. 1000 psi total for all this and any additional needs such as using the air on the surface or for your bcd. These things can be done without using your air, but I expect to be on boat with 500 minimum and not as a standard or acceptable amount of pressure. In the future, i'll be leaving the deep environment with 2/3rds of the starting pressure.

5. We had dive lights and glowsticks, but were very far from boat. In addition to this they were busy getting everyone else out of the water from the previous incident. The seas were very rough and the ft.lauderdale locals can attest to this. I tried to swim to boat because I did not want to be left behind by the rest of the group who immediately began swimming.

6. I did have chest pain in addition to numbness, convulsions, and arrythmia. The symptoms got worse over time and I am glad EMS did eventually get notified. I am not a doctor and cannot self diagnose, but I would hope any diver surfacing with chest pain would immediately get on 02 and seek help.

7. Instructors shouldn't have to babysit, but they should be responsible enough to follow the dive plan and make their best effort to assure the safety of their students. Aggressively swimming when we were blown off the wreck was a dangerous decision. My buddy and I did not like the situation and did not want to ascend alone since we rightfully recognized that the other students and instructors were now, sadly, our only additional air source.

8. Boat is a glass bottom boat... see the "coral princess" here: http://www.southfloridadiving.com/boats.htm ... "A custom built glassbottom catamaran".

9. I wear beanie and gloves in the pool because that is how I dive. I don't see how this is relevant.

I doubt the post was written by a panel of students given the way it was written, but if so I imagine they could be upset since everyone has some makeup dives to do. Not really my problem... most of this could have been avoided by following rules of scuba. An introduction to night diving should be shallow and protected from heavy wave action. All divers should dive the site during the day if they are going to do it at night (NAUI protocol). Instructors should follow dive plan. Students should be responsible for their own dive... yada yada yada. This thread is pretty old and I have become a better diver because of the situation and the debates here.

Take care and dive safely,

-Vayu

 

[bradshsi]

Before we did our giant stride into the sea, the instructors, dms, and AOW candidates had agreed to bring attention the instructors and dms when we had 1800 psi left so that they can keep track of what our air consumption was.
Our limit for ascent was 1000psi, which would give us enough to do a safety stop and surface.

According to the rules of Rock Bottom, 1000 psi is too low a turn pressure for a dive to 72' assuming use of an AL80 tank.

(Please refer to Lamont's excellent thread on the topic here:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?p=735077#post735077t


What would have happened if someone had gone OOA due to equipment failure just prior to the 1000 psi ascent ? Had that happened there would have been an increased chance of incurring DCS because there would have been insufficient air to reach the surface air sharing while doing all stops.

According to Lamont's calculations 1300 might have been more appropriate for a straight ascent to the surface. A somewhat higher figure would be needed if you wanted to swim back to the anchor line before ascending.

Bottom line IMHO 1000 psi was too low for the conditions stated in the thread.

 

[TheRedHead]

Back on the upline with 1000 psi seems to be the standard for Florida recreational wrecks including the Speigel Grove.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

1000 psi on the upline from 120 or less is plenty air for me including a safety stop unless I screwed up bad and need to do a deco stop. As long as I'm within NDL limits however it's no big deal. In fact a safe ascent from 90 with 750 and a 3 minute stop still leaves me with 400 psi on the surface. And as to point number 7 in vayu's post if you are at 72 ft and the group is 100 ft away and getting farther, the surface is always your next most reliable source of air. That's why you carry signaling devices. Go up inflate and voila! unlimited air.

 

[Vayu]

Jimlap,

Just a few clarifications:

We were not on the upline at 1000 psi, we were around 300yrds from the boat. In addition to this I never said the group was 100' ft away. Visibility must have been around 10 - 15' at best and the group was within this range. I agree the surface is the next best source of air and it is pretty obvious my buddy and I should have given the internationally recognized middle finger ascent signal when we got low. Given the circumstances, we did pretty well keeping up and getting on the boat at all was some sort of miracle for me.

Shop smart, Shop S-mart,

-V

 

[bradshsi]

1000 psi on the upline from 120 or less is plenty air for me including a safety stop unless I screwed up bad and need to do a deco stop. As long as I'm within NDL limits however it's no big deal. In fact a safe ascent from 90 with 750 and a 3 minute stop still leaves me with 400 psi on the surface.

The whole point of rock bottom is to calculate the air supply necessary to get you and your buddy to the surface with stops in event of one of you having an OOA due to equipment failure.

You gave figures for your normal ascent assuming both you (and your buddy) are in good shape.

Lets run your figures again based on the scenario where Capt Murphy comes calling on you, and your buddy suddenly has equipment failure.

Normal ascent from 90ft (with 3 min stop) = 750-400 = 350 psi used

Now x2 because you are supporting your buddy's air consumption = 2x350 = 700psi

So you now arrive back at the boat with 50 psi. You might be happy with a margin that thin, but I wouldn't be.



Now factor in the fact that you're stressed because it's your first night dive, you have equipment failure, and conditions are less than ideal. So your SAC rates jump by 50% over normal (this is just an example your SAC may vary....)

Total air usage = 700 x 1.5 = 1050 psi

Now given all of the above do you still think 1000 psi is enough ?