admikar
Contributor
I guess OP would state that happening, but yes, you are correct.
Failed CESA in OW
- Thread starter Mosizely
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For the OP, instructors, and all:
Don't get down on yourself. Students struggle with skills all the time. I've had students who seemed comfortable and proficient on every skill down the line suddenly panic on mask remove/replace when the cold water hits their face. In all cases they recovered or dove another day and did it perfectly. Sometimes we learn more from our mistakes than when we get it right the first time.
Some comments on weighting: For me, 12 kilos would be acceptable in a dry suit with a steel tank and in salt water. A little heavy, but it's about what I take when I dive with students because I can pull 1.5 kilos and put it on a student who seems a bit too buoyant at the end of a dive, or who needs some trim adjustment. However, in freshwater that's way too much weight for me even with a bit extra to hand off.
Was the CESA done at the beginning of the dive or the end? If at the end, with 500 psi/ or 40-ish bar, you should float at eye level with an empty BCD. But at the start of the dive the air in your tank should make you negatively buoyant. I ask because I run the skill immediately after oral inflation at the surface is demonstrated and before we descend for a tour. I do this for my own and student safety: There's minimal nitrogen build up at that point. A purist might say you don't run out of air with a full tank, but I'd come back with you could have a system failure that prevents you from getting air with a full tank.
I also encourage and teach students to "cheat" because, frankly "cheating" is how they SHOULD be diving. Specifically, in briefing the skill I tell them to get neutrally buoyant first. They should always be diving neutrally buoyant, but because I just brought them down from the surface they may forget. Then I tell them to swim up and only dump air from the BCD if it's pulling them up faster than an easy swim would take them up. Perhaps half my students end up on the surface either slightly positively buoyant or able to give one breath to achieve positive buoyancy. The goal is NOT to dump all your air from your BCD on every ascent, it's to dump enough so the BCD is not pulling you up faster than you want to ascend.
Once on the surface, I tell them it's up to them how to establish positive buoyancy for the drill. Either orally inflate, or take off the weight belt. Given it's hard to put the weight belt back on in the water, most choose to orally inflate. The PADI standard for this skill is "establish positive buoyancy," not "orally inflate." I also hammer home with my students that if they ever really have to do a CESA, forget about orally inflating and just drop the weight belt at the surface. They're going to be panicked and flustered; if they're sinking at all dropping lead is the way to go. The emergency weight drop is an easy but underappreciated skill.
Don't get down on yourself. Students struggle with skills all the time. I've had students who seemed comfortable and proficient on every skill down the line suddenly panic on mask remove/replace when the cold water hits their face. In all cases they recovered or dove another day and did it perfectly. Sometimes we learn more from our mistakes than when we get it right the first time.
Some comments on weighting: For me, 12 kilos would be acceptable in a dry suit with a steel tank and in salt water. A little heavy, but it's about what I take when I dive with students because I can pull 1.5 kilos and put it on a student who seems a bit too buoyant at the end of a dive, or who needs some trim adjustment. However, in freshwater that's way too much weight for me even with a bit extra to hand off.
Was the CESA done at the beginning of the dive or the end? If at the end, with 500 psi/ or 40-ish bar, you should float at eye level with an empty BCD. But at the start of the dive the air in your tank should make you negatively buoyant. I ask because I run the skill immediately after oral inflation at the surface is demonstrated and before we descend for a tour. I do this for my own and student safety: There's minimal nitrogen build up at that point. A purist might say you don't run out of air with a full tank, but I'd come back with you could have a system failure that prevents you from getting air with a full tank.
I also encourage and teach students to "cheat" because, frankly "cheating" is how they SHOULD be diving. Specifically, in briefing the skill I tell them to get neutrally buoyant first. They should always be diving neutrally buoyant, but because I just brought them down from the surface they may forget. Then I tell them to swim up and only dump air from the BCD if it's pulling them up faster than an easy swim would take them up. Perhaps half my students end up on the surface either slightly positively buoyant or able to give one breath to achieve positive buoyancy. The goal is NOT to dump all your air from your BCD on every ascent, it's to dump enough so the BCD is not pulling you up faster than you want to ascend.
Once on the surface, I tell them it's up to them how to establish positive buoyancy for the drill. Either orally inflate, or take off the weight belt. Given it's hard to put the weight belt back on in the water, most choose to orally inflate. The PADI standard for this skill is "establish positive buoyancy," not "orally inflate." I also hammer home with my students that if they ever really have to do a CESA, forget about orally inflating and just drop the weight belt at the surface. They're going to be panicked and flustered; if they're sinking at all dropping lead is the way to go. The emergency weight drop is an easy but underappreciated skill.
Aura
Contributor
I really don't think the amount of weight on the weight belt tells us anything on its own. I've never needed more than 4kg weight even in a drysuit with my thickest winter undergarments. One of my frequent buddies is both shorter and lighter than me and needs twice as much. The OP was struggling to stay at the surface even when kicking, and that alone tells us that there was too much weight.
I'll play devil's advocate for a moment on the instructor in this case, but then point out errors I saw.
First, I'm imagining the other 4 in the class who want to get on with their lives and I'd put a priority on getting them through. I can see saying "hey, today is not your day let's try again next weekend" or something similar.
That's the drag with "public" lessons. I'd much rather teach one or two students at a time, but most students don't want to pay the added money that approach would require. I'll do "makeup" dives for free if a diver struggles and just can't do the exercises correctly.
Second, there's a real judgment call about a student's state of mind. After several failed attempts at a skill, some students really need a "time out" to get their head on straight.
Third, the OP didn't say (or I missed it) that the reg was removed BEFORE the ascent. I got the impression he went for the reg when he started to sink on the surface. I think they did the right thing: This isn't a real out of air emergency, but was rapidly becoming a dangerous situation.
There may be a bit of a watermanship (i.e., swimming) issue here: I've had students who had horrifically bad kick technique. It might not affect them swimming horizontally, but when they have to swim vertically (and especially if combined with being negatively buoyant) they don't stand a chance.
OP: I'm not saying any of the above is true, just playing "counsel for the defense."
OK, so now for where I think the instructor messed up, and in part badly.
1. Training should have been to be neutrally buoyant at the start of the CESA. If the student isn't neutral, the instructor should catch that and indicate they become neutral. (And in real life if I were not neutral when I run out of air, I think I'd go straight to buoyant emergency ascent, i.e., dropping weight on the bottom, standards be damned.)
2. Training should have been not to let so much air out of the BCD that you're negatively buoyant at the surface.
3. Everything about this sounds like the OP was overweighted. By the time you do CESA, the instructor has had an opportunity to do a proper weight check with an empty tank at the end of dive 1.
4. I would NEVER deliberately pull a reg from a student's mouth. I understand why the instructor did it; he was hoping to "rescue" the skill before the student inhaled from an "empty" tank. I'll confess I've had students in the situation of not being able to efficiently orally inflate (often due to cold lips not making a good seal) and start to sink. However, the instructor's move at that point is to safely get the diver to the surface and re-try the skill.
5. CESA can and should have been tried again on dive 4. Between the two dives there should be sufficient time to calm even an agitated diver down and talk them through the skill. You take the whole group of 6 out, do everything but the CESA, then surface and either watch 4 exit the water or have a DM guide them to shore. Then try the CESA again with the folks that had trouble. It doesn't slow down the 4 who did it correctly the first time, and it gives the other two a mental boost for overcoming. I've done something similar with lots of divers. Fewer than 1% of my students required the "hey, today is not your day let's try again next weekend" talk. And those were because of panic to the extent of hyperventilation, not just difficulty and frustration with a skill.
First, I'm imagining the other 4 in the class who want to get on with their lives and I'd put a priority on getting them through. I can see saying "hey, today is not your day let's try again next weekend" or something similar.
That's the drag with "public" lessons. I'd much rather teach one or two students at a time, but most students don't want to pay the added money that approach would require. I'll do "makeup" dives for free if a diver struggles and just can't do the exercises correctly.
Second, there's a real judgment call about a student's state of mind. After several failed attempts at a skill, some students really need a "time out" to get their head on straight.
Third, the OP didn't say (or I missed it) that the reg was removed BEFORE the ascent. I got the impression he went for the reg when he started to sink on the surface. I think they did the right thing: This isn't a real out of air emergency, but was rapidly becoming a dangerous situation.
There may be a bit of a watermanship (i.e., swimming) issue here: I've had students who had horrifically bad kick technique. It might not affect them swimming horizontally, but when they have to swim vertically (and especially if combined with being negatively buoyant) they don't stand a chance.
OP: I'm not saying any of the above is true, just playing "counsel for the defense."
OK, so now for where I think the instructor messed up, and in part badly.
1. Training should have been to be neutrally buoyant at the start of the CESA. If the student isn't neutral, the instructor should catch that and indicate they become neutral. (And in real life if I were not neutral when I run out of air, I think I'd go straight to buoyant emergency ascent, i.e., dropping weight on the bottom, standards be damned.)
2. Training should have been not to let so much air out of the BCD that you're negatively buoyant at the surface.
3. Everything about this sounds like the OP was overweighted. By the time you do CESA, the instructor has had an opportunity to do a proper weight check with an empty tank at the end of dive 1.
4. I would NEVER deliberately pull a reg from a student's mouth. I understand why the instructor did it; he was hoping to "rescue" the skill before the student inhaled from an "empty" tank. I'll confess I've had students in the situation of not being able to efficiently orally inflate (often due to cold lips not making a good seal) and start to sink. However, the instructor's move at that point is to safely get the diver to the surface and re-try the skill.
5. CESA can and should have been tried again on dive 4. Between the two dives there should be sufficient time to calm even an agitated diver down and talk them through the skill. You take the whole group of 6 out, do everything but the CESA, then surface and either watch 4 exit the water or have a DM guide them to shore. Then try the CESA again with the folks that had trouble. It doesn't slow down the 4 who did it correctly the first time, and it gives the other two a mental boost for overcoming. I've done something similar with lots of divers. Fewer than 1% of my students required the "hey, today is not your day let's try again next weekend" talk. And those were because of panic to the extent of hyperventilation, not just difficulty and frustration with a skill.
SlugLife
Contributor
It's a fair attempt at devil's advocate. If an OW student was failing a skill, like CESA, for any reason, we might want to figure out why they were failing:
* Are they over-weighted?
* Are they finning inproperly?
* Are they doing the skill wrong?
* Are they having an equipment issue?
I don't get the sense that the instructor actually properly went through these diagnostic steps, especially since he "failed" 2 students. Instead, I get a very strong impression that the instructor was over-booked for what the instructor could handle. I also didn't hear any mention of him asking the students to come back for a follow-up dive.
Ideally you only put enough gas in the suit so the undergarment can expand. That's pretty close to empty. When you put more gas in it collects around the shoulders. I think for a weight check the suit should be almost empty on the surface.
Boarderguy
Chief Narctopus Wrangler
L13
Contributor
I usually have a pint (half a liter) of extra air beyond this. If I'm wearing my seawings, it's in my shoulders. If I'm wearing my jetfins, it's in my legs. One of these days I'll find the perfect fins and not be to cheap to buy them.
EDIT:
I could fix this with weights, but I don't like ankle weights/shoulder weights, and it would take more total weight to do it in the BC weight pockets since the lever arm is shorter. In the end it saves me ~1kg (2lb) total weight and keeps my total bubble ~1 liter (1 quart) smaller, making buoyancy easier across changing depth.
CuzzA
Wetwork for Hire
Thanks. It's been a long time.
Honestly, I think just doing a basic free diving course would be the most beneficial for a lot of new divers. If you can do a 60 ft. 1 minute apnea dive, no reason you shouldn't be proficient in getting to the surface in a controlled, panic free fashion during a scuba failure.
Surely many years ago all new divers were first trained to free diving for a couple of months, before giving them any scuba system.
The lack of proper free diving experience is often the cause of problems of accidents.
Said that, I have never witnessed a diver in emergency to behave in a controlled, panic free way.
They speed towards the surface as fast as they can...
Even if they have air.
Panic drives this uncontrolled urge to emerge.
So I think that teaching Cesa to new divers is mostly pointless and I was happy when Cmas removed this exercise from the syllabus.
Better to teach how to solve most problems staying underwater, and how to survive a panic-driven uncontrolled ascent, when everthing else failed.
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