Failed CESA in OW

[Subcooled]

In an emergency, though, you need to ditch your weights first which, IIRC, isn't done in CESA during OW training.

Yeah, not done in CESA, because it is both "Controlled" and "Swimming".

The buoyant ascent however, when uncontrolled, especially with a drysuit, is a completely different thing - it is the equivalent of an ICBM launch where you can do nothing but exhale and aim at the stars. Done that from 60ft. It was wild. Expanding gas exits through the neck seal so you will have your private jacuzzi on your face. Not dangerous from that depth, as long as you keep your airway open.

It's so much better to do a (relatively) relaxed swim to the surface while letting extra air out of your suit and BCD. Freediving experience would make this experience hugely more comfy. But it's not easy if you are overweighted.

There's something odd here, though. If one is able to maintain a constant depth, and not sinking like a stone, then going up would only increase buoyancy.

Hence, I suspect that the diver is slightly overweighted and not really relaxed / maybe doing CESA in an upright position where air escapes from the drysuit. CLOSE THE SUIT EXHAUST VALVE - but then it might go a little bit faster than expected.

 

[VikingDives]

Where did you find this PADI standard depth? While the eLearning discusses buoyant emergency ascents, it doesn't state a depth threshold currently and I haven't been able to find one (not in the eLearning, instructor manual, or guide to teaching anyway). The eLearning also states that you'd be doing a CESA, but dropping your weights and exceeding the safe rate of ascent as a result (and mentions flaring out as you near the surface to slow some). That seems to imply dropping the weights while at your maximum depth, not waiting until you're at a given depth to do so.

I personally believe that unless you're over-weighted due to being in a tech configuration that necessitates a negative buoyancy, you should always be able to do a CESA during a recreational dive and shouldn't have to perform a buoyant ascent.

I can't remember where the more than 30 feet came from. Maybe the guide to teaching? I didn't mean to imply that it was in the instructor manual. I was just going from memory.

I'd venture that you're correct, as I've found that a number of things that I was trained on as "PADI gospel" I've found out later were just not the case. . .

I did find this thread where that specific question was asked, so at least I'm not losing my mind...

padi ow, why is CESA recommended to 9m?

the book says if ooa, & your buddy is far, if you are less than 9m deep do cesa (controlled emergency swimming ascent) , but if you are deeper inflate your bcd to do an uncontrolled bouyant ascent the latter sounds like a death sentence. why couldnt cesa be the method of choice for 18m depth...

scubaboard.com

 

[boulderjohn]

On threads like this one these days, I lament the fact that ScubaBoard no longer has some of the old time divers who would jump in and comment about their experiences. Back when the J-valve (with no SPG) was the norm, CESAs were common practice, because the J-valve often did not work as promised. Also, some training programs used to do 100 foot CESAs as part of the programs, sometimes as a graduation exercise. Following the thread identified in the post above, I found a very old thread in which divers do talk about their experiences doing CESAs from 90-100 feet.

CESA from 100 feet?

My PADI OW text says to use CESA (controlled emergency swimming ascent) at depths down to 30 feet in OOA situations (and no buddy). [You know the technique--swim up saying ahhhhh all the way.] But a commercial diver I was talking to said he's done a CESA from 100 feet. Is that credible...

scubaboard.com

 

[Seaweed Doc]

I can't remember where the more than 30 feet came from. Maybe the guide to teaching? I didn't mean to imply that it was in the instructor manual. I was just going from memory.

I'd venture that you're correct, as I've found that a number of things that I was trained on as "PADI gospel" I've found out later were just not the case. . .

I did find this thread where that specific question was asked, so at least I'm not losing my mind...

padi ow, why is CESA recommended to 9m?

the book says if ooa, & your buddy is far, if you are less than 9m deep do cesa (controlled emergency swimming ascent) , but if you are deeper inflate your bcd to do an uncontrolled bouyant ascent the latter sounds like a death sentence. why couldnt cesa be the method of choice for 18m depth...

scubaboard.com

It's a thing. For possibly legal and pedagogical reasons I can't tell you exactly where I've seen . (Though I suspect a close review of online learning will find it.)

Message me if you want me to privately to tell you where the 30' cutoff comes into play in PADI OW learning.


EDIT: I just looked up online learning, and the text doesn't make a distinction. I'm not in a place where I can listen to the recorded comments.

The textbook learning version DOES make this distinction. (I use both, and now I'm wondering why the difference exists.)

 

[boulderjohn]

The textbook learning version DOES make this distinction. (I use both, and now I'm wondering why the difference exists.)

In the linked thread from 2014, you will find a post I which I referenced asking PADI abut this a few years before that. As I recall, their reply was, well, vague. What it came down to is that what they really mean (and apparently don't know how to say it) is that it is up to your judgment. In very shallow water, a CESA is the best choice. In much deeper water, a buoyant ascent is the best choice. In the gray area between the two, it is up to you to decide. If you aren't sure you can do it with a CESA, drop your weights and go buoyant.

Let's face it--a diver in that situation is not likely going to look at the depth gauge and think, "Now what was the cutoff level for CESA again?"

 

[Seaweed Doc]

In the linked thread from 2014, you will find a post I which I referenced asking PADI abut this a few years before that. As I recall, their reply was, well, vague. What it came down to is that what they really mean (and apparently don't know how to say it) is that it is up to your judgment. In very shallow water, a CESA is the best choice. In much deeper water, a buoyant ascent is the best choice. In the gray area between the two, it is up to you to decide. If you aren't sure you can do it with a CESA, drop your weights and go buoyant.

Let's face it--a diver in that situation is not likely going to look at the depth gauge and think, "Now what was the cutoff level for CESA again?"

The vague answer doesn't surprise me. It's probably the best answer.

I'll be honest: I see the not dropping weights ever as being the more likely fatal error. If telling folks "deeper than 30', drop lead" helps some folks make the call to drop, great. For novices, I think a hard cutoff like that is probably better than asking them to make a panicked judgment call. Especially since we don't expect them to do a skin-dive deeper than a swimming pool so they don't realize how long they can hold their breath.

Or maybe it's just me: I'm a quantitative person and generally know what depth I'm at, at least to the extent of shallower or deeper than 30'.

I also think there's a little bit of a psychological value in knowing you COULD do a CESA or buoyant emergency ascent even though it never happens. Back in the dark ages when I was learning to dive, I got a lot of comfort out of knowing I had a depth gauge, J valve, I could buddy breathe if a buddy was around, and barring that I could bolt for the surface in what we called Blow and Go back then.

 

[SlugLife]

The lack of proper free diving experience is often the cause of problems of accidents.

I'm perhaps nit-picking phraseology here. "Cause" is probably the wrong word. Free-diving experience may allow a diver to better resolve an incident safely far more often. (And you can say similar about Redundant-Air).

I'm not that interested in free-diving, however as someone who frequently solo-dives, I suppose it might be worth looking into an intro-course.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

In an emergency, though, you need to ditch your weights first which, IIRC, isn't done in CESA during OW training. This does cause me to question the validity of still teaching it, or at least requiring it for certification.

I would never have my students ditch weight if we were doing a CESA. It is controlled....not a buoyant ascent. Weight dropping is another skill and any instructor should discuss the differences between the two and why and when you would need them. Although for the record, I will state that I don't think a weight drop is needed when diving a balanced rig. Caveat being in very cold water, drysuit, steel cylinder and thick undergarments. It can be very possible that in those conditions, a weight drop would be needed and turn into a buoyant ascent.

Definitely wasn't fun... feel like abandoning the dream...!

DO NOT QUIT!!! An old Navy saying is that calm seas never made a skillful sailor. You have fought through a bad experience and, upon completion of the course, will look back and learn much from it.

Strangely enough my 'Other Half' is a Padi OW instructor & First Aid Instructor (in case I drown!) but I didnt want her to teach me...or the company that she works for. There's no one I trust more with my safety, so perhaps I'll hire gear & finish the dives with her after all...
Still debating whether it's all worth it as I feel a bit scarred by the fact that it was.. "ok failed.. get out..." (not as harsh as that, but it felt like it....)

I understand not wanting your spouse to teach you. I have taught another instructor's daughter due to the family dynamics that can come into play during a course. Not sure why you don't want the company she works for to teach you but if it is not because they suck...then maybe use another instructor at her shop.

I will say that when you do change instructors, be sure to explain to the new instructor the issues you had with weighting. I would not go not detail about the CESA but would absolutely make sure they know you were overweighted and thus will need to do a proper weight check prior to any other skills being done.

I know you spoke to the instructor that day but it might not be a bad idea to address your concerns with them again. Talk about being overweighted and having to kick hard too stay afloat at the surface. You may be able to correct any issues with this followup now that they're not in the water. Some instructors aren't worth this time. Others just don't see their failure in the moment but on reflection can accept it. Since they forbid dumping weights at the surface AND overweighted you I'd ask to either have a private lesson with them to finish the cert or to join their next class. Either way you've paid them for the instruction and have not received it.

Edit: if they still seem like a clown after your conversation just ask your partner to certify you and enjoy diving with them.

I would add that if this was me, I would have another conversation with the instructor about me being overweighted on the dive. If that does not cause them do agree to do a proper weight check before moving on, I would then go to the shop manager or training director and discuss it with them. The shop needs to be aware of the deficiencies of the instructor. Now, maybe they already know and overweighting is something they prefer to do, I have no way of knowing but if they don't know, then you not speaking to them allows this instructor to continue what is a very dangerous practice.

If the shop then does not act, move on and find someone better.

 

[dlofting]

I would never have my students ditch weight if we were doing a CESA. It is controlled....not a buoyant ascent. Weight dropping is another skill and any instructor should discuss the differences between the two and why and when you would need them. Although for the record, I will state that I don't think a weight drop is needed when diving a balanced rig. Caveat being in very cold water, drysuit, steel cylinder and thick undergarments. It can be very possible that in those conditions, a weight drop would be needed and turn into a buoyant ascent.

Although I did a CESA in my OW course as a requirement for certification I've never had to do one while diving. Just wondering if you have and what the circumstances were that necessitated that action.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

Although I did a CESA in my OW course as a requirement for certification I've never had to do one while diving. Just wondering if you have and what the circumstances were that necessitated that action.

Nope, I have never had to do one and do not see myself ever needing to do one. You may ask why would I never see myself doing one...then again you may not ask that but I will tell you anyway.

I typically dive sidemount so I am not reliant on a single cylinder of gas or a buddy that needs to stay close enough to rescue me. If I am not teaching and required to be in a single cylinder, I dive sm or ccr. When on CCR I carry a bailout with me, even on shallow dives. Redundancy is important to me as is the ability to save myself in an OOG emergency.