Failed CESA in OW

[johndiver999]

Orally inflating below surface was no problem...technique i thought to be ok... air was certainly going in... but i put two large breaths in, went for the third, hoping that it would be enough, but by that point i was underwater again... first reaction was to reach for reg.

Well that sounds like you are grossly overweighted. But if you had the stamina to get 2 lungfulls in, you should have the stamina to get a third.

There should be no reason why a student should have to work that hard to remain on the surface. I've seen students who were being trained and were grossly overweighted myself. It is hard to overemphasize how dangerous and incompetent the instructor sounds. If the OP is going to stick with diving, I would find a new training facility.

 

[SlugLife]

It felt like i was an inconvienience at that point.. four of the other six were keen to get on with dive 4.. two of us were pulled....

I read this as (a) you were made to feel like an inconvenience and (b) the instructor failed to teach 2 students.

I'm not an instructor, but I've heard failing students is (or should) rarely done before tech-diving, and typically only for egregious behavior or a student clearly not taking the class seriously (ex: doing none of the reading).

Obviously my "Watermanship" could be an issue.. i'm a TRAINEE... reliant on the instruction of a professional.

Correct, and the instructor should have helped you fix any skill-issues.

Certainly this all sounds more like a massive over-weighting problem (we have to take your word for it, we weren't there), but regardless of whether it was a skill or equipment issue, a good instructor should have been able to recognize the problem and help the student resolve it.

 

[rsingler]

I'm late to the thread, but I think @admikar had it right, here:

Something is not adding up.
If OP was neutral or close to it at depth, how come he is negative at surface?
Dumped too much air on way up? That's technique issue, not weight issue.

Thus far (making a lot of assumptions) 12kg sounds okay. After all, he was apparently able to descend.
Based upon statements made by the OP, if he was struggling to maintain neutral at depth, it's a suit control issue, not a weight issue. After all, if he could descend, things would only get more negative at depth. Adding suit gas is easy. The addition of more weight by the instructor was absolutely the wrong thing to do. To the OP: getting used to the right amount of squeeze can be a challenge. I'd agree that a pool drysuit course might be helpful (but can you do that before you're certified? Shops might balk).

So at the CESA (I'm a PADI Instructor), it's key to start neutral. After all, that's how you would have been diving before you went OOA or had a malfunction. Second error by instructors. After that, in a drysuit, there's no reason not to arrive neutral or light, unless you're not only dumping from bcd, but suit. Which is task overloading for a new student from 7-10m. If you arrive light, two breaths should do it. Was your suit shoulder popoff valve set too light?
Therefore, a) either started negative (instructor error) or b) dumped too much gas (suit/bcd control). Probably a), since OP says they added more weight in response to suit overfilling at depth, but maybe b) since OP struggled with NB. Or both since b) caused instructors to incorrectly do a).

Yeah, go with with your wife, who will have more patience. Concentrate on depth control/ neutral buoyancy first. Sounds like you just need drysuit time as a "private lesson" in between OW dives 1 & 3.

 

[KenE]

I beleive you have gotten as much advise on technique and instructor quality as you want. I want to address your mental state. Diving is fun, fun to learn, fun to do, fun to teach. Regardless of where you are in your experience, if everyone is not having fun, something is wrong. Learning is difficult at times, but should be fun and exciting. You didn't get this from your instructor, change it. I want to encourage you to keep diving, keep learning, keep having fun doing it. Don't give up because of one bad experience, trust me, more will come. The first free flow will definitely increase your heart rate again. The first time your computer AI stop working at depth will get your heart rate up. You will overcome and learn, then back to having fun diving. Don't let one bad experience influence your desire to get wet, there is so much more to this activity that you have only scratched the surface, don't let the surface rust deter you, keep polishing until you are the best diver you can and always have fun doing it!

 

[berndo]

Dumped too much air on way up? That's technique issue, not weight issue.

Therefore, a) either started negative (instructor error) or b) dumped too much gas (suit/bcd control).

You can't really dump to much gas, IMHO.

Thus far (making a lot of assumptions) 12kg sounds okay.

I agree, it doesn't sound crazy but that's really not telling us anything. 12 kg can be way to much or way too little depending on the size of the student and the gear used. And who knows if it really was 12 kg, the student didn't pack the weights.

 

[admikar]

You can't really dump to much gas, IMHO.


I agree, it doesn't sound crazy but that's really not telling us anything. 12 kg can be way to much or way too little depending on the size of the student and the gear used. And who knows if it really was 12 kg, the student didn't pack the weights.

I might be wrong, but majority of advices here seem to be referenced with wetsuit diving in mind.
With drysuit, you add initial weight to counter inbuilt buoyancy and then you add weight for warmth. If DS is required because it is too cold for wetsuit, you don't want to arrive shallow with an empty suit. It provides almost no insulation that way. So, if you dump all gas from BCD and DS, you are going to sink.
OP says he was not able to stay on surface by kicking alone. That means not enough buoyancy (even if he had way more weight than stated 12 kgs). At depth he had to be less negative or he would not be able to kick it up in the first place. Only way to get more negative at surface vs at depth is by dumping too much air either from DS or BCD or both. Technique problem.

@Mosizely please, do not take what I said as a criticism of you. Problem is squarely with your instructor.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I might be wrong, but majority of advices here seem to be referenced with wetsuit diving in mind.
With drysuit, you add initial weight to counter inbuilt buoyancy and then you add weight for warmth. If DS is required because it is too cold for wetsuit, you don't want to arrive shallow with an empty suit. It provides almost no insulation that way. So, if you dump all gas from BCD and DS, you are going to sink.
OP says he was not able to stay on surface by kicking alone. That means not enough buoyancy (even if he had way more weight than stated 12 kgs). At depth he had to be less negative or he would not be able to kick it up in the first place. Only way to get more negative at surface vs at depth is by dumping too much air either from DS or BCD or both. Technique problem.

@Mosizely please, do not take what I said as a criticism of you. Problem is squarely with your instructor.

There is also the possibility of air leaking through the neck/face and/or wrist seals when in a vertical position. So "dumping" is not the only way a dry suit can loose buoyancy.

The unfortunate part of this discussion is that @Mosizely did not enjoy the dive, did not see some of the underwater life in the area, and only remembers the bad experience of "failed" CESAs; by the way, these were not "failed" as he did reach the surface without injuring himself. Getting air into the BCD is a technique problem, but he did reach the surface and so had a successful CESA each time. Labeling these "failures" is a reflection on the instructor, not the student.

SeaRat

 

[Seaweed Doc]

I desperately tried not to panic...(although snatching my reg out earlier didn't do me the world of good) but as i was re-descending, grabbed reg purged & took breath.... that was the FAIL... to me, it was a case of.... I'm going underwater with no means of breathing... need reg!

Others may have told you this, but in case they hadn't and before I forget: You did the right thing to replace the reg.
Sure, you don't pass the skill. But this is a drill, not a real emergency, and when the drill goes sideways breathe off the reg for goodness sake!

In any emergency, the easiest solution is the best one. And I'd say sinking without a reg in is an emergency.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

IIRC, in basic open water the skill is done in just 15-20 ft/5-7 meters. One of the easiest skills to perform... if weighted properly.

PADI standard is the CESA is done between 20 and 30 feet.

 

[Boarderguy]

You can't really dump to much gas, IMHO.

In a drysuit a use 30lbs (14 kg) of lead plus my pony, backplate and other misc gear. I like to be warm and more air means more lead. If I emptied my suit and wing life would be difficult at the surface unless I dumped weight. So yes, you absolutely can dump too much air.
@Mosizely with only 12kg of lead in a drysuit I think you'd be pretty buoyant. I'm ~180cm and ~90kg. In my drysuit I have 14kg lead plus another 5kg of negative weight on my rig AND a steel 100 tank. You may have missed a few pieces of lead when you added everything up.