Donating the "primary" regulator

[OldNSalty]

The OP was speaking about teaching configs in OW. The level of attention you speek of is not an OW level of skill. It is DM level of skill. OW's in general do not exercise that level of attention. They don't do the math , they cant do the math. Most are lucky to have kept their mask both on and dry, (non flooded).

I want to disagree with this point as I often find myself managing both my gas and calculating my buddies (but perhaps with a little less accuracy then Andy)...I want to disagree but then again I find it hard to based on observation.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Then we have a real problem with teaching diver's.. We should go back to the old school way, And have the ones that don't make the cut... Take up bowling... And I really feel this way... It's a problem with every high risk sport.. Let's make money off all these people who want to be cool like us.. And there goes the standards... Down to the bottom.. Hell, I've seen Dive Masters that look like first time divers... It used to mean something to be a Jump Master or Dive Master , not anymore... Very sad in my book...

Jim...

While I agree with this up to a point, it would never happen. They got away from the old school way because the exclusive militaristic mindset of survive or die wasn't meshing with the mindset of the new regular civilian public that wanted to learn to dive. Diving was suffering in attendance and graduation because too many people were being excluded. So around the early 80's the top powers got together and decided to give the image and training protocols a change, I understand that. However, to the point that training deteriorated in some pockets of the industry is pretty disapointing.
I think they concentrated too much on profits and growth throughout the entire spectrum and getting these people properly trained took a back seat.
So now we have a debate here about donating the primary and the discussion goes to all the other problems that divers could face doing this, reg muggings, panicked divers, tanks coming loose because of faulty gear designs, hose configurations wrong for primary share, etc.

My feeling is that the primary donate isn't really an appropriate solution to anything until many of the other issues with divers' skill are addressed first. I see the primary air share as kind of a bandaid to bad divers skills.
My problem is I'm not seeing the primary air share they way they are claiming it will work with any configuration to be a better solution to share air. I think the panicking OOA diver and the reason they are an OOA panicking diver in the first place need to be addressed first. After that, I'm not seeing why SSI can't take the lead and become a proactive leader in changing the industry to a properly configured primary donate system, if that's what they want.
The way they are proposing now seems to me to put both divers at risk worse than the current standard octo method. Everybody needs to pick one style then teach it really well, it got way too fragmented.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

While I agree with this up to a point, it would never happen. They got away from the old school way because the exclusive militaristic mindset of survive or die wasn't meshing with the mindset of the new regular civilian public that wanted to learn to dive. Diving was suffering in attendance and graduation because too many people were being excluded. So around the early 80's the top powers got together and decided to give the image and training protocols a change, I understand that. However, to the point that training deteriorated in some pockets of the industry is pretty disapointing.
I think they concentrated too much on profits and growth throughout the entire spectrum and getting these people properly trained took a back seat.
So now we have a debate here about donating the primary and the discussion goes to all the other problems that divers could face doing this, reg muggings, panicked divers, tanks coming loose because of faulty gear designs, hose configurations wrong for primary share, etc.

My feeling is that the primary donate isn't really an appropriate solution to anything until many of the other issues with divers' skill are addressed first. I see the primary air share as kind of a bandaid to bad divers skills.
My problem is I'm not seeing the primary air share they way they are claiming it will work with any configuration to be a better solution to share air. I think the panicking OOA diver and the reason they are an OOA panicking diver in the first place need to be addressed first. After that, I'm not seeing why SSI can't take the lead and become a proactive leader in changing the industry to a properly configured primary donate system, if that's what they want.
The way they are proposing now seems to me to put both divers at risk worse than the current standard octo method. Everybody needs to pick one style then teach it really well, it got way too fragmented.

I'm not sure one style is possible or practical. One reason.. the AIR 2 (or whatever equivalent the other manufacturer's are making). They are reasonably popular, (and also hated by many people on this forum). However, based on my casual observation, there are a lot of divers using them.

Unfortunately, the training seems to be so terrible (in some instances) that people think that they will be donating or receiving an AIR2 in an emergency. The only safe way to use the AIr 2 is for the donor (owner) to stick it in his mouth and this leaves the primary regulator for donation.

They are so common now, that I would think it irresponsible for divers NOT to be taught that they MAY be offered a primary to share.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I'm not sure one style is possible or practical. One reason.. the AIR 2 (or whatever equivalent the other manufacturer's are making). They are reasonably popular, (and also hated by many people on this forum). However, based on my casual observation, there are a lot of divers using them.

Unfortunately, the training seems to be so terrible (in some instances) that people think that they will be donating or receiving an AIR2 in an emergency. The only safe way to use the AIr 2 is for the donor (owner) to stick it in his mouth and this leaves the primary regulator for donation.

They are so common now, that I would think it irresponsible for divers NOT to be taught that they MAY be offered a primary to share.

With divers using an air 2, if they were at least advised to use a 40" or longer for their primary instead of a 36" they would be way ahead of the curve as far as the comfort of the recipient. The air2 is the donors problem, if they can make it work more power to them. At least the recipient is taken care of.
My whole dog in this fight is/are the problems I have with trying to make a 36" or shorter work for a primary donate for the recipient.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

With divers using an air 2, if they were at least advised to use a 40" or longer for their primary instead of a 36" they would be way ahead of the curve as far as the comfort of the recipient. The air2 is the donors problem, if they can make it work more power to them. At least the recipient is taken care of.
My whole dog in this fight is/are the problems I have with trying to make a 36" or shorter work for a primary donate for the recipient.

I use a short primary. Don't know how long it is really, but if I have a real emergency, the recipient is just going to have to make due with my little hose. I don't want to run a hose around my neck and I don't want a swivel and have to run it under my arm.

Maybe a longer hose, routed under my arm would not bother me, but I have never tried it. I practice sharing the primary with my son on occasion and we seem to make do, but it is tight.

 

[NAM001]

Perhaps you have a point bout that. The dive industry teaches the bare minimum as an absolute min requirement and upon completion they are free to go to the max of 130. There are so many threads about various aspects of this. Basic OW IMO is an introduction course that equips you to go dive at shallow water depths. Shallow water self rescue skills are all that is taught for those classes. The hole exists at the AOW level where there is no significant addition of skills. Too date we can only thank the instructors that do their best to fill those gaps quite often at the OW level. Some do it in the AOW phase (my preference) Those instructors put out great divers, however those divers are not the ones that most of threads like this one references to. As much as I hate to stir up a pot, I am a believer of OW's at <60'. That will never happen till there is a teaching solution to address the holes in diving. The basic physics are handled in BOW but the true skills are not. One should not be able to complete AOW till they can demonstrate a good command of buoyancy and trim. Not master it at the tech level but be good at it. Good enough that you could prove the prerequisite skills to enter a tech class for further improvement. None of this is fiscally equitable to those that live off diving. Perhaps if some were kicked to the side till they got the skills rather than pass and collect the teaching fees the quality of so many MIGHT not will improve. This is not a stab at most of the instructors on SB cause I believe through the years I have grown to understand their approach to standards. As you comment about """ It used to mean something to be a Jump Master or Dive Master , not anymore... Very sad in my book... """ I couldn't agree with you more!!!

Then we have a real problem with teaching diver's.. We should go back to the old school way, And have the ones that don't make the cut... Take up bowling... And I really feel this way... It's a problem with every high risk sport.. Let's make money off all these people who want to be cool like us.. And there goes the standards... Down to the bottom.. Hell, I've seen Dive Masters that look like first time divers... It used to mean something to be a Jump Master or Dive Master , not anymore... Very sad in my book...

Jim...

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I use a short primary. Don't know how long it is really, but if I have a real emergency, the recipient is just going to have to make due with my little hose. I don't want to run a hose around my neck and I don't want a swivel and have to run it under my arm.

Maybe a longer hose, routed under my arm would not bother me, but I have never tried it. I practice sharing the primary with my son on occasion and we seem to make do, but it is tight.

I use a 40" without a swivel, I found I don't need one. I even use a 40" when solo diving with one 2nd stage because I like it under my arm. With the slightly longer length, if it ever got knocked out of my mouth (getting dive bombed by a sea lion) I find it easier doing a sweep if I ever need to. This is also why I don't like hoses over my shoulder, because with it under my arm I can trap it and keep control of it's location easier.

---------- Post added January 3rd, 2016 at 08:36 PM ----------

Perhaps you have a point bout that. The dive industry teaches the bare minimum as an absolute min requirement and upon completion they are free to go to the max of 130. There are so many threads about various aspects of this. Basic OW IMO is an introduction course that equips you to go dive at shallow water depths. Shallow water self rescue skills are all that is taught for those classes. The hole exists at the AOW level where there is no significant addition of skills. Too date we can only thank the instructors that do their best to fill those gaps quite often at the OW level. Some do it in the AOW phase (my preference) Those instructors put out great divers, however those divers are not the ones that most of threads like this one references to. As much as I hate to stir up a pot, I am a believer of OW's at <60'. That will never happen till there is a teaching solution to address the holes in diving. The basic physics are handled in BOW but the true skills are not. One should not be able to complete AOW till they can demonstrate a good command of buoyancy and trim. Not master it at the tech level but be good at it. Good enough that you could prove the prerequisite skills to enter a tech class for further improvement. None of this is fiscally equitable to those that live off diving. Perhaps if some were kicked to the side till they got the skills rather than pass and collect the teaching fees the quality of so many MIGHT not will improve. This is not a stab at most of the instructors on SB cause I believe through the years I have grown to understand their approach to standards. As you comment about """ It used to mean something to be a Jump Master or Dive Master , not anymore... Very sad in my book... """ I couldn't agree with you more!!!

They have it pretty much minimized down as far as it can go without any major lawsuits happening.
Their end goal is to fill up resorts, dive boats, and sell/rent lots of gear, and get the training part done as quickly as possible to lure prospects.
People have gotten used to how it is. If it was any harder they would start scaring people away and they don't want that...bad for business.
The industry as a whole is focused on maximizing profits and not necessarily turning out the best divers it can. There are some great instructors who care, but for every one of them there's probably ten mediocre ones that just go through the motions and teach to bare minimum standards...and maybe not even that.

 

[DevonDiver]

Divemaster training has become 'just another specialty course', IMHO. The content, especially theory, having been cut to a bare minimum.

Divers who seek true 'professional' training for employment in the dive industry are often short-changed.

I'd hazard to guess that the vast majority of people taking the DM course are not seriously interested, or committed to, a career in diving.

Across the world's backpacker trails it's just another gap year adventure to be enjoyed. Perhaps it gets you some free diving along the way...

And then there's those who are blindly searching for a a 'big agency' recreational course that actually develops more skillfullness and competency... and the only readily available options are DM or tech.... and tech is expensive...

Agencies have recognised that DM training is an effective profit booster, so they applied the magic formula of "quick-cheap-easy" to allow the sausage factory schools to cash in and, consequently, up demand for expensive 'crew packs'; whilst also widening the reverse up-selling pyramid that is the instructor development programme ...

Its sad that divers feel compelled to train as divemasters in the blind search for true skill training, or to provide a capacity for unsupervised diving... a state that SHOULD be achieved by the Open Water course...!

---------- Post added January 4th, 2016 at 06:27 PM ----------

For those interested, I've supplemented my earlier post about situational awareness and predictive gas sharing into an article:

A Predictable Strategy for Air Sharing Emergencies

 

[tstormdiver]

With divers using an air 2, if they were at least advised to use a 40" or longer for their primary instead of a 36" they would be way ahead of the curve as far as the comfort of the recipient. The air2 is the donors problem, if they can make it work more power to them. At least the recipient is taken care of.
My whole dog in this fight is/are the problems I have with trying to make a 36" or shorter work for a primary donate for the recipient.

Most primary regulator hose lengths are about 28"- 30" long. I teach with a 36" hose...... much more than that, until you go to a 60" hose wrapped around the body,... you are talking about a HUGE loop of hose hanging out, causing lots more drag &/ or getting snagged on things. 36" is plenty for an air share situation. 36" is boarder line on the drag/ sagging issues- personal experience. When I teach air share with bungee'd octos, the hoses on the students' equipment are "bass ackwards" because the Calypso regulators have a proprietary hose connection from the 1st stage to the primary second stage. I warn the students immediately, that they will be in each others faces & to prepare to "get cozy". I have not had any real issues teaching it in this manner & many students that buy their own regulators will opt to also buy a longer primary hose (32"- 36") for comfort. Because so many of my LDS shop's customers will typically buy an integrated alternate air source, I teach ONLY donation of the primary regulator & do explain in detail that some divers will only donate the octo. To be honest, except in the case of vintage equipment (only 1 second stage),.... I have yet to see any of this come through the door, or towards the technical side of things (Doubles, Sidemount, or rebreathers), which comprises well less than 1% of out clientele, there really is not any recreational configuration in which donation of the primary will not work. Personally, if I am diving a technical configuration (back mounted doubles or Rebreather with sidemounted bailouts) with a recreational diver, I will thoroughly address air sharing procedures,.... especially the rebreather, since the loop is not an option for them. On my bailouts, I carry 7' hoses on each cylinder for donation (I have QD's for my BOV on each cylinder). My back mounted doubles, I have my 7' primary for donation.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

*****