Donating the "primary" regulator

[Jax]

Holy cow! I've read through all this, and everyone has talked config, hose length, and everything else . . . but didn't address your question!

SSI 2016 standards states that SSI advocates donating the primary as this method can be used with almost any regulator configuration (one of which is listed as the long hose configuration, which I personally use for my recreational diving and would advocate it to any certified thinking diver).

I don't understand this. Students are not trained to use these other regulator configurations, so why teach a method of air sharing that is (in my opinion) sub-optimal for the typical regulator configuration that most students are trained on?

Disclaimer: Not an instructor.

Bottom line - in the real world, an out of air diver does not come up to you and politely report "OOA" and let you hand them a regulator.

You will be body slammed by a somewhat-panicked-to-fully-panicked diver clawing at your face for your air.

If YOU practice on the primary, you have practiced going to your backup over and over, so when your air disappears out of your mouth, you will (hopefully less stressed than the other diver) go to your backup.

 

[tstormdiver]

Holy cow! I've read through all this, and everyone has talked config, hose length, and everything else . . . but didn't address your question!



Disclaimer: Not an instructor.

Bottom line - in the real world, an out of air diver does not come up to you and politely report "OOA" and let you hand them a regulator.

You will be body slammed by a somewhat-panicked-to-fully-panicked diver clawing at your face for your air.

If YOU practice on the primary, you have practiced going to your backup over and over, so when your air disappears out of your mouth, you will (hopefully less stressed than the other diver) go to your backup.

Amen!!! I warn my students that it is typically akin to a mugging,... not usually text book.

 

[oldschoolto]

That is why you go straight to that bright yellow hose and not try and get the divers attention... If the octo is bungied under your chin, Then they are going to be pulling the regulator out of your mouth... If you have a ( air2 ) set-up, they are going to pull the regulator out of your mouth...

But the truth is, A little bit of simple training on every few dives and gear being taken care of solves 99% of all this... Most of us dive with the same buddy most of the time or solo... So training to work on a plan is not that hard...

Jim...

 

[rick00001967]

perhaps since this is the SSI section of the forum some clarification is needed

ssi standards DO NOT say that the instructor MUST teach passing the primary for recreational ow classes. it says...."For entry-level SSI open water programs, SSI Dive Professionals may teach either method of air sharing (passing the primary or passing the alternate regulator)." notice it says "MAY", not MUST and it specifically says this applies to entry level training
it further says...."Due to the wide variety of equipment configurations, SSI encourages SSI Dive Professionals to teach both methods of air sharing to entry-level divers."
however, for SSI pro level training the standards make a distinction by saying....."Since passing the primary works with most equipment configurations, it is SSI's preferred method. It is a required and evaluated skill for all SSI Dive Professional training programs." but it still falls short of saying that it MUST be used. it only states it is the "preferred method" and you will be evaluated on this skill in your pro level evaluations.

i did my ow instr eval with sage dalton (the ssi head training director for NA and caribbean) and we were def expected to demonstrate the ability to use passing the primary in an oog situation. it was made clear to me that he would prefer we teach this method as well. but our shop still teaches passing the alternate.

nowhere (that i am aware of anyway) do the ssi standards dictate which regulator hose configuration is to be used for entry level ow training programs. if i am incorrect i would hope someone will point it out where the standards say otherwise.

 

[NAM001]

Eric I agree. There re 2 relms of correction needed hte present , get air, the future , fix the cause.

What I was getting at as far as the loose tank was that if the BC in question had two cam bands then the problem probably would have never happened. So one faulty problem lead to another problem lead to another problem. This is usually how it goes in scuba related accidents. Weak spots tend to find other weak spots really easily.

---------- Post added January 2nd, 2016 at 07:48 PM ----------

A couple of posts hit the issue for me right now that is post 37 and 38. No matter what you do as far as hoses and donating processes in reality or in classes,,,, what is normally taught is what is in the field. Granted it is not he optimal configurations but it is a force to be delt with as say 90% of all rigs are non DIR configured. It would be advantageous to have OW classes teach all the methods currently being employed and then focus on the one the agency is fostering. Students can then go out and figure out what works best for them in the diving they do. Naturally those that invest in their own gear will go one route and those that do not will most likely go the traditional route. IMO I want a primary hose that I can hold with my arm extended to full length. I like space between me and the recipient. I think it is necessary to have that in order to engage in follow up actions. A normal diver in true ooa will never be calm and cooperative. He is on a clock with few seconds available. they will snatch the reg form your mouth and hold on or life, often resulting in you not being able to move or get to your backup reg. All share air's I have looked at in training discussions is give air and proceed iomediatly to the surface. Relatively safe schedule of events since you are diving NDL. I have had 2 occasions where there were legitimate OOA's and they both were at the end of the dive. They were not very cooperative. ON the surface they thought I was about to go ooa also unless they drove me up to the surface. If they were low then so must I be low. Ratioinal's be damned its the end result that you have to deal with. Long hose at arms length gives me room to maneuver with an OOA attached. How long does the long hose have to be. Probably not 7 ft but perhaps so. Out side of the overhead environment where the 7' has a distinct extended, purpose. on the rec side perhaps a 3-4 ft may be better suited. The un-thought issues with that is how do you route the 4 ft hose to make it functional for single diver OR dual diver use. Short hose works for single diver. 7 ft hose great for overheads. 5 ft perhaps as good as the 7 ft for short people. 4 ft if you can get one, probably too short to keep streamline on a single diver but good for dual diver. 5 ft seems to be the off the shelf solution for the rec diver as he probably does not have to have a can light to restrain the hose length. The fault as see it in training is that they do not teach or go over the pros and cons off all configurations. They teach as if upon graduation all hoses on all divers will be like what you use in class. Until rental gear goes to longer hoses I don't see many agencies shifting their training emphasis to them. With that,,, one could argue that the traditional share air procedures taught in most agencies is satisfactory because the majority of the rental gear is of that configuration. Also that those that use the more tech aspect of configurations have already mastered the less optimal configurations and as such they are ept to adapting to the renta-buddys gear much better than the opposite.

Post #44 seams to take the responsible approach to tis.

 

[DevonDiver]

Holy cow! I've read through all this, and everyone has talked config, hose length, and everything else . . . but didn't address your question!



Disclaimer: Not an instructor.

Bottom line - in the real world, an out of air diver does not come up to you and politely report "OOA" and let you hand them a regulator.

You will be body slammed by a somewhat-panicked-to-fully-panicked diver clawing at your face for your air.

I don't agree with your bottom line.

Firstly, it ALL depends upon your situational awareness and how you apply the buddy system. Even with an inexperienced / incompetent buddy, YOU have the capacity to check or ask their gas levels regularly. YOU have the capacity to observe them...

People only get body slammed/reg snatched when they ALSO are diving in la-la land.... switched off and zero situational awareness. There's a karma to that....

If I've checked on a diver's gas a few times during the dive, then I've got a strong idea what their consumption is. For an experienced diver, that'd be a formal SAC/RMV estimation. For the inexperienced diver, it might only be an awareness of the buddy's consumption relative to their own.... but that's enough to set mental warnings in place.

Very simplistically... I check your gas:
- I'm at 180 bar, you're at 170 bar.
- I'm at 140 bar, you're at 110 bar.
- I'm at 110 bar, you're at 80 bar.

..... I can quickly work out that you're gonna be hitting reserve gas around the point I'm hitting 90 bar... So I'll be paying very close attention by that time. Give or take 10 bar accuracy, I know when to check so that we've got plenty of time to ascend. If you forget, I won't...

Having checked and anticipated... I'll also be raising my level of observation. I'll be closer. My AAS, of whatever configuration, will be at hand.

The second I witness any symptom of gas depletion... shortened breathing, increased stress, wide eyes, desperate grab at the SPG.... my AAS will be deployed and waiting a couple of inches from your mouth.

No exceptions, no excuses.... If another diver reaches a stage where they're panicking from air depletion... It's MY failure as their buddy.

 

[NAM001]

The OP was speaking about teaching configs in OW. The level of attention you speek of is not an OW level of skill. It is DM level of skill. OW's in general do not exercise that level of attention. They don't do the math , they cant do the math. Most are lucky to have kept their mask both on and dry, (non flooded).

I don't agree with your bottom line.

Firstly, it ALL depends upon your situational awareness and how you apply the buddy system. Even with an inexperienced / incompetent buddy, YOU have the capacity to check or ask their gas levels regularly. YOU have the capacity to observe them...

People only get body slammed/reg snatched when they ALSO are diving in la-la land.... switched off and zero situational awareness. There's a karma to that....

If I've checked on a diver's gas a few times during the dive, then I've got a strong idea what their consumption is. For an experienced diver, that'd be a formal SAC/RMV estimation. For the inexperienced diver, it might only be an awareness of the buddy's consumption relative to their own.... but that's enough to set mental warnings in place.

Very simplistically... I check your gas:
- I'm at 180 bar, you're at 170 bar.
- I'm at 140 bar, you're at 110 bar.
- I'm at 110 bar, you're at 80 bar.

..... I can quickly work out that you're gonna be hitting reserve gas around the point I'm hitting 90 bar... So I'll be paying very close attention by that time. Give or take 10 bar accuracy, I know when to check so that we've got plenty of time to ascend. If you forget, I won't...

Having checked and anticipated... I'll also be raising my level of observation. I'll be closer. My AAS, of whatever configuration, will be at hand.

The second I witness any symptom of gas depletion... shortened breathing, increased stress, wide eyes, desperate grab at the SPG.... my AAS will be deployed and waiting a couple of inches from your mouth.

No exceptions, no excuses.... If another diver reaches a stage where they're panicking from air depletion... It's MY failure as their buddy.

 

[oldschoolto]

The OP was speaking about teaching configs in OW. The level of attention you speek of is not an OW level of skill. It is DM level of skill. OW's in general do not exercise that level of attention. They don't do the math , they cant do the math. Most are lucky to have kept their mask both on and dry, (non flooded).

Then we have a real problem with teaching diver's.. We should go back to the old school way, And have the ones that don't make the cut... Take up bowling... And I really feel this way... It's a problem with every high risk sport.. Let's make money off all these people who want to be cool like us.. And there goes the standards... Down to the bottom.. Hell, I've seen Dive Masters that look like first time divers... It used to mean something to be a Jump Master or Dive Master , not anymore... Very sad in my book...

Jim...

 

[AJ]

Having checked and anticipated... I'll also be raising my level of observation. I'll be closer. My AAS, of whatever configuration, will be at hand.

The second I witness any symptom of gas depletion... shortened breathing, increased stress, wide eyes, desperate grab at the SPG.... my AAS will be deployed and waiting a couple of inches from your mouth.

No exceptions, no excuses.... If another diver reaches a stage where they're panicking from air depletion... It's MY failure as their buddy.

Totally agree. But there are a lot of divers/buddys who are only capable of managing their own diving, let alone be aware of their buddy. And yes, even I have dived with instructors who are'nt capable enough to deal with buddy stress en unawareness. Sad but true.

 

[DevonDiver]

The OP was speaking about teaching configs in OW. The level of attention you speek of is not an OW level of skill. It is DM level of skill. OW's in general do not exercise that level of attention. They don't do the math , they cant do the math. Most are lucky to have kept their mask both on and dry, (non flooded).

Open Water Diver - 'certified to dive with a buddy of equal, or higher, training level and without professional supervision'.

What you wrote merely illustrates the woeful gap between expectation and reality in entry-level scuba training.

If only DM, and above, were expected to have any level of vigilance or anticipation, then we see a complete failure and break-down of the buddy system. The buddy system being core principle of recreational diving safety.

Really... we shouldn't expect buddy vigilance, air checking and basic anticipation of gas depletion below divemaster/professional level?

Standards of diving may have dropped to such an extent that we see too little responsibility or inter-diver support.... but please, at least here on Scubaboard, let's not lower our sights so far that we start publicly stating such pitiful standards are now the least we should accept or expect....