Donating the "primary" regulator

[tstormdiver]

Our shop trains students with both integrated alternate air sources & with the traditional Octos. They are taught to donate the primary in both cases. There is no confusion or tangling of hoses.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I did not read all the post or the others. but i think you answer you own question. Why don't they teach the other configurations??? Well the last padi i sat through they taught the octo for sharing. sdi is teaching the primary long hose and others teach variations. The only thing that is constant is the location of the primary reg. and that is in the donors mouth. It is not wrapped around an arm, or bcd inflator with reg on it. you know how long the hose is cause you saw it when on the boat before splash. I don't know where more concern lies. the OOA diver finding a charged hose or the donor finding his backup hose when the one in his mouth is snatched. The DIR configuration pretty well addresses both these concerns. for those that have short hoses and still use them they IMO clearly do not know what it is to have to share air and transit to the surface. A long hose makes it easy and manageable to give the primary to a needy diver, allow him room to recover and still be able for the donor to assess the problem and provide a correction if possible. you cant do that very well with a short hose. Picture this and this has happened to me. a diver looses his tank from loose tank straps. the tank strap is snagged on the tank valve the reg has been pulled form the OOA divers mouth. A long hose allows the OOA to breath and has the length to allow the donor to get behind and put the tank back in place. For me the majority of OOA's i have donored for, have been from loose tanks. I have seen many that have lost their octo and found it dragging in the water or dangled till it was caught in their gear. I have seen some use clips or thumb snaps to prevent that from happening with out thinking about how to get it out for an OOA event. The only known good air supply in in my buddies mouth.

You addressed several problems in one post.
Too short of a hose for primary regs.
Primary donate still does not address concerns about dangling octo's regardless of who assigned to use them in an OOA.
Tank coming loose because single strap failed - whole other can of worms involving the designs of modern BC's and their materials...best to not go there in this thread or it'll become a major hijack.

 

[tstormdiver]

You addressed several problems in one post.
Too short of a hose for primary regs.
Primary donate still does not address concerns about dangling octo's regardless of who assigned to use them in an OOA.
Tank coming loose because single strap failed - whole other can of worms involving the designs of modern BC's and their materials...best to not go there in this thread or it'll become a major hijack.

Hard to have dangling Octos get tangled, when they are bungeed beneath the chin.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Hard to have dangling Octos get tangled, when they are bungeed beneath the chin.

Apparently SSI/SDI needs to be made aware of that.

 

[tstormdiver]

Apparently SSI/SDI needs to be made aware of that.

Our shop is SSI, SDI, TDI, IANTD & we teach it that way.

 

[Carl_F]

Too short of a hose for primary regs.
Primary donate still does not address concerns about dangling octo's regardless of who assigned to use them in an OOA.

Length of primary hose appears very standard on recreational/rental rigs. We teach based on what they will likely encounter. If they have their own gear we'll teach to that.

Dangling octo is not dependent on "primary donate". It's a different issue and we teach keeping kit reasonably clean by restrain in the console and have a place to hold the alternate air so it's always in the spot you expect it.

Not difficult.

Others have complained about the short hose and not being able to travel while donating the standard rec length primary. SSI does not teach traveling while a diver is OOA. We teach the dive is ended and immediately come to the surface using the safe buddy ascent. We're talking beginning OW divers so they should not be traveling while OOA. The donor is also right there to assist the OOA diver with bob and inflate BCD oral inflation.

 

[jwllorens]

What I gather from this thread is that a big reason why donating the primary is taught is because it is simply easier for the instructors.

No matter what equipment the student is using, the instructors can teach one method of donation, and it will work.



I would argue that donating the primary is not the most optimal way to handle an OOA emergency with a 3' primary 4' octo configuration that is standard for rental gear. Instead, I would advocate ALWAYS checking the octo to ensure it works once in the water, ensuring that the octo is secure on the chest where it can be seen and checked throughout the dive and easily located with muscle memory, and donating the octo straight away. Properly checking equipment before and during a dive could eliminate the possibility that the octo is not in place or is malfunctioning during donation, allowing for direct donation of the longest host available and an immediate ascent right after, which is the simplest method for a very stressful situation.

Instead, I was taught to donate the primary, which is great if you use an Air 2 or long hose setup which all diver's should be using. But at the time I was using rental regs, and so are almost all other OW divers. I was then taught to swap regs after for the ascent phase, so that the OOA diver goes on the longest available hose. This is overcomplicating things just so that one simplified donation method can be taught initially, only to re-complicate things with the whole reg-switching procedure that follows.

Others have complained about the short hose and not being able to travel while donating the standard rec length primary. SSI does not teach traveling while a diver is OOA. We teach the dive is ended and immediately come to the surface using the safe buddy ascent. We're talking beginning OW divers so they should not be traveling while OOA. The donor is also right there to assist the OOA diver with bob and inflate BCD oral inflation.

What is the difference between ascending and traveling? You are doing the same thing fundamentally and will be constrained by a short hose length either way. In both cases, you are swimming, and in both cases, the longer the hose is that the donated reg is on, the more comfortable and less constrained the two divers will be.

Additionally, what if a diver goes OOA on a wreck dive in Florida. His buddy donates his regulator. Additionally, a current kicked in while they were hanging around the wreck. Why do a free ascent when they can swim back to the anchor line? Why teach students to do a free ascent in this situation? Having done a free ascent in a current (though thankfully not due to an OOA emergency) I would never want to reccomend it to divers that are already in a stressful situation unless it was the most prudent option. Unless the donor did not know how to get back to the anchor line, the anchor was far away, or the donor was also low on gas, I would never advocate a free ascent. That doesn't seem right. Newly certified divers will have a hard time controlling ascent rates with free ascents even in the pool. Could you imagine trying it with an OOA buddy tethered to you by a 3ft hose and very little dive experience? That seems like a great way to add an overexpansion injury, a lost buddy pair, or any number of problems to an already bad situation.

 

[Carl_F]

What I gather from this thread is that a big reason why donating the primary is taught is because it is simply easier for the instructors.

No matter what equipment the student is using, the instructors can teach one method of donation, and it will work.

Two things ...

1. Where did anyone say, "I teach it that way because it's easier for me"??? Show me the post.

2. You have it exactly right ..". "No matter what equipment the student is using ... it will work." The student will then be able to go buy or rent gear and it will work with a standard recreational rig. What is wrong with that?

I also teach it that way because if I didn't I wouldn't be teaching. It's in the standards for my agency.

And three (I lied ... three things) ... This is the SSI forum, correct? So the discussion is around the SSI method and standards. I don't see any amount of discussion in this thread resulting in a change to the SSI standards.

 

[jwllorens]

Two things ...

1. Where did anyone say, "I teach it that way because it's easier for me"??? Show me the post.

2. You have it exactly right ..". "No matter what equipment the student is using ... it will work." The student will then be able to go buy or rent gear and it will work with a standard recreational rig. What is wrong with that?

I also teach it that way because if I didn't I wouldn't be teaching. It's in the standards for my agency.

And three (I lied ... three things) ... This is the SSI forum, correct? So the discussion is around the SSI method and standards. I don't see any amount of discussion in this thread resulting in a change to the SSI standards.

The point of this thread is to discuss a specific SSI standard that I personally take issue with. I am not attempting to enact any sort of "change" to SSI policy. I would not be so arrogant as to think that my limited diving experience makes me enough of an expert to determine what anyone should be taught as a standard. But I can certainly have an opinion on the matter.

I understand that it is an SSI standard, and that instructors are required to teach this. I am not questioning the instructors, I am questioning the SSI standard.

While I feel that the most common regulator configuration is one of the least optimal for managing an OOA situation, it is the most common. So my issue is that I do not believe donating the primary regulator to be the most effective method of managing an OOA emergency with this regulator setup. Of course, I could be completely wrong, but it seems that it would be more effective to stress that the backup regulator (octopus) be secured to the BCD on the chest where it is in sight and easily reached and checked throughout the dive to ensure it has not come loose, stress that the octopus should be tested for function immediately upon entering the water, and then teaching students to donate the octopus directly with this setup and then ascend. If a student doesn't have an octopus, obviously they donate the primary according to their setup, and then ascend.

My issue with the SSI standard is that it seems to attempt to simplify donation procedures across all regulator setups (for an unknown purpose), only to introduce additional complication in the procedure with the most common regulator setup when the students are taught to swap regulators following donation.

 

[Carl_F]

The point of this thread is to discuss a specific SSI standard that I personally take issue with. I am not attempting to enact any sort of "change" to SSI policy. I would not be so arrogant as to think that my limited diving experience makes me enough of an expert to determine what anyone should be taught as a standard. But I can certainly have an opinion on the matter.

I understand that it is an SSI standard, and that instructors are required to teach this. I am not questioning the instructors, I am questioning the SSI standard.

While I feel that the most common regulator configuration is one of the least optimal for managing an OOA situation, it is the most common. So my issue is that I do not believe donating the primary regulator to be the most effective method of managing an OOA emergency with this regulator setup. Of course, I could be completely wrong, but it seems that it would be more effective to stress that the backup regulator (octopus) be secured to the BCD on the chest where it is in sight and easily reached and checked throughout the dive to ensure it has not come loose, stress that the octopus should be tested for function immediately upon entering the water, and then teaching students to donate the octopus directly with this setup and then ascend. If a student doesn't have an octopus, obviously they donate the primary according to their setup, and then ascend.

My issue with the SSI standard is that it seems to attempt to simplify donation procedures across all regulator setups (for an unknown purpose), only to introduce additional complication in the procedure with the most common regulator setup when the students are taught to swap regulators following donation.

We teach testing the alternate air before the dive and proper placement.

SSI philosophy is to teach skills in manners they can be used in all conditions. Teaching donating the alternate does not meet this philosophy.

SSI does NOT teach swapping regulators following donation as has been pointed out several times in text and in the demo video.

And teaching donation of the primary is also the same method for technical agencies. Since minimizing risk is a major element in technical diving, there must be some benefit to donating the primary.

I believe it is more effective to teach one method of dealing with an OOA emergency than two. Muscle memory relies on not having to make a conscious decision on how to proceed in the middle of dealing with an emergency.