Donating the "primary" regulator

[boulderjohn]

I
Firstly, it ALL depends upon your situational awareness and how you apply the buddy system. Even with an inexperienced / incompetent buddy, YOU have the capacity to check or ask their gas levels regularly. YOU have the capacity to observe them...

People only get body slammed/reg snatched when they ALSO are diving in la-la land.... switched off and zero situational awareness. There's a karma to that....

If I've checked on a diver's gas a few times during the dive, then I've got a strong idea what their consumption is. For an experienced diver, that'd be a formal SAC/RMV estimation. For the inexperienced diver, it might only be an awareness of the buddy's consumption relative to their own.... but that's enough to set mental warnings in place.
...
No exceptions, no excuses.... If another diver reaches a stage where they're panicking from air depletion... It's MY failure as their buddy.

I've only just got my PADI OW c-card and I was doing all of this on my 3rd and 4th OW dives. It probably helps that I'm in my mid-30s and risk adverse, and my instructor has 30 years of experience and literally himself was in military risk management.

Awareness of gas levels and a buddy's gas levels is an important part of current PADI standards--it was not up to your instructor's decisions. In several portions of the confined water (pool) portion of the course, the student is supposed to check a buddy's gas level. When asked for gas levels, a student diver is supposed to be able answer with reasonable accuracy without looking at the gauges because he or she has been checking enough to be able to make a good estimate.

This continues in the OW dives. Students are required to check each other's gas levels, and they are supposed to be able to respond without checking.

 

[Codger81]

Awareness of gas levels and a buddy's gas levels is an important part of current PADI standards--it was not up to your instructor's decisions. In several portions of the confined water (pool) portion of the course, the student is supposed to check a buddy's gas level. When asked for gas levels, a student diver is supposed to be able answer with reasonable accuracy without looking at the gauges because he or she has been checking enough to be able to make a good estimate.

This continues in the OW dives. Students are required to check each other's gas levels, and they are supposed to be able to respond without checking.

More an observation that we're both very risk aware and I didn't wait to be asked if I felt something was off. All my instruction was one-on-one, so my instructor and buddy were one in the same anyway.

 

[DevonDiver]

What about a primary on a bungee necklace?

Make it detachable from the necklace...and I don't see an issue. Use a tied necklace, or an off-the-shelf rubber one.

You just can't use a zip-tie method of attachment with the necklace.

Recreational divers have been putting AAS into rubber bungee necklaces for years... fine for donation.

 

[Coztick]

With the typical "octopus" setup, if you donate the primary, you still know it is working and you are better equipped to deal with a malfunctioning octopus so that is nice, but the primary is on a 3' hose. This means that the OOA diver is panicking, right in your face, as he or she tries to catch his breath, while tugging on your primary regulator that could very well be twisted up with your octopus

The simple solution, if donating the primary, is to have it on the longest hose.
The extension of this is the long hose/necklace.
The only thing that matters is your team/buddy is clear on your configuration.
No underwater surprises allowed!
For single tank sm, I donate the primary on 7' and point out how it is only hose length and tank position that differs from their config. but 2 tanks, I have to alternate regs so they need to know that they get the bright yellow reg whether I'm on it or not.
If the holiday divers in their rental gear were taught to breathe from and donate the "Octo"
maybe the "primary" wouldn't drag on the reef?

 

[flyboy08]

I don't agree with your bottom line.

Firstly, it ALL depends upon your situational awareness and how you apply the buddy system. Even with an inexperienced / incompetent buddy, YOU have the capacity to check or ask their gas levels regularly. YOU have the capacity to observe them...

People only get body slammed/reg snatched when they ALSO are diving in la-la land.... switched off and zero situational awareness. There's a karma to that....

If I've checked on a diver's gas a few times during the dive, then I've got a strong idea what their consumption is. For an experienced diver, that'd be a formal SAC/RMV estimation. For the inexperienced diver, it might only be an awareness of the buddy's consumption relative to their own.... but that's enough to set mental warnings in place.

Very simplistically... I check your gas:
- I'm at 180 bar, you're at 170 bar.
- I'm at 140 bar, you're at 110 bar.
- I'm at 110 bar, you're at 80 bar.

..... I can quickly work out that you're gonna be hitting reserve gas around the point I'm hitting 90 bar... So I'll be paying very close attention by that time. Give or take 10 bar accuracy, I know when to check so that we've got plenty of time to ascend. If you forget, I won't...

Having checked and anticipated... I'll also be raising my level of observation. I'll be closer. My AAS, of whatever configuration, will be at hand.

The second I witness any symptom of gas depletion... shortened breathing, increased stress, wide eyes, desperate grab at the SPG.... my AAS will be deployed and waiting a couple of inches from your mouth.

No exceptions, no excuses.... If another diver reaches a stage where they're panicking from air depletion... It's MY failure as their buddy.

Your that good you can anticipate a stage one failure?

 

[tstormdiver]

I don't agree with your bottom line.

Firstly, it ALL depends upon your situational awareness and how you apply the buddy system. Even with an inexperienced / incompetent buddy, YOU have the capacity to check or ask their gas levels regularly. YOU have the capacity to observe them...

People only get body slammed/reg snatched when they ALSO are diving in la-la land.... switched off and zero situational awareness. There's a karma to that....

If I've checked on a diver's gas a few times during the dive, then I've got a strong idea what their consumption is. For an experienced diver, that'd be a formal SAC/RMV estimation. For the inexperienced diver, it might only be an awareness of the buddy's consumption relative to their own.... but that's enough to set mental warnings in place.

Very simplistically... I check your gas:
- I'm at 180 bar, you're at 170 bar.
- I'm at 140 bar, you're at 110 bar.
- I'm at 110 bar, you're at 80 bar.

..... I can quickly work out that you're gonna be hitting reserve gas around the point I'm hitting 90 bar... So I'll be paying very close attention by that time. Give or take 10 bar accuracy, I know when to check so that we've got plenty of time to ascend. If you forget, I won't...

Having checked and anticipated... I'll also be raising my level of observation. I'll be closer. My AAS, of whatever configuration, will be at hand.

The second I witness any symptom of gas depletion... shortened breathing, increased stress, wide eyes, desperate grab at the SPG.... my AAS will be deployed and waiting a couple of inches from your mouth.

No exceptions, no excuses.... If another diver reaches a stage where they're panicking from air depletion... It's MY failure as their buddy.

If it was only it was that simple... At times it is not. It has happened (basically a mugging) to my tech instructor, a few times. Typically he is diving solo, doing photography or has a buddy doing the same, so both are essentially solo. The divers that were out of air were NOT his buddy (if he had one) & at times, were not even from his group. At one point, he had to air share with 2 buddies that ran out of air about the same time. He gave his primary to one OOA diver & then proceeded to buddy breathe with the other, to the surface. Another instance was a diver who got lost from his buddy & group, saw my instructor's bubbles, started swimming over to him & ran out of air just before reaching him. It is not always textbook & always better to be prepared for the unexpected.

 

[DevonDiver]

Your that good you can anticipate a stage one failure?

"The second I witness any symptom of gas depletion [....] my AAS will be deployed and waiting a couple of inches from your mouth".

I'd count a first stage failure as a 'symptom' of gas depletion.... wouldn't you? A pretty obvious one, at that....

 

[Arus]

sorry if i'm posting on an old thread... just read almost everything in here 'cause interested in the topic, but about a different detail.
first things first: what about that in the SSI instructor manual the donation of the primary is specified as "preferred", but is supposed to be teached along with the donation of the alternative too? in the updated one at least is like this. pretty sure it was also the version 2016.
It seems to me is a way of teaching to look at each others equipment and discuss about the techniques to use, before the dive.

the different detail: i came up with a discussion about the primary donation with a colleague few days ago... i was pointing out that in general in the rescue courses we are teaching to always stay away, and keep distance from someone panicked... even if he's drowning. 'cause the first rule is "protect yourself" and... then... help.
the donation of the primary, in his opinion, goes against this principle... letting a panicked diver take the only, surely operative reg, out of his mouth. leaving both for few seconds (hopefully) without any gas and with being also uncertain about the alternative source.
in my opinion the advantage of giving a primary on a long hose straight away is much bigger than losing the gas supply for few seconds... you cut out 90% of the stress of the OOAD straight.
but is also true that if you do that... and the alternative is not working... then you're quite screwed yourself... potentially the OOAD is now a little far away from you... and not very prone to start a buddy breathing.
That for many agencies is not teached anymore, so not even known as a technique.

 

[The Chairman]

In a situation where you are donating a regulator (and not having it taken from your mouth) would it not be best to go ahead and donate your octopus for the extra foot of hose on it alone?

You're over complicating this. This is soooo easy. Simply make the regulator on the longest hose your primary and put the short hose regulator on the bungee around your neck.

 

[AJ]

...but is also true that if you do that... and the alternative is not working... then you're quite screwed yourself...

In that case you both screwed up. One failure can happen (it should not, but it can), but two times OOA in one dive during ascent (OOA means imo: call the dive)? Better to go home then and get some more training and do equipment checks before go diving again.