Does TEC supersede REC?

[Aotus]

I guess I do take offense in that you compare my process of diving with my son to be "similar" to the above mentioned case. There is nothing similar at all.

The cavern my son dives at is called "the crater" and is a spring with deposition of minerals around this underground hot spring. Go there on any day of the year and you will find three-five different instructors teaching open water, it is a rather (comparatively) benign diving hole, and in no way can be compared to eagles nest, which is a cave. If you know anything about that cave, you know it is a place sophisticated, well-trained CAVE divers go to.

Take offfense or not - cavern diving without training is stupid and dangerous.

If what you're saying now is that the site is not actually a cavern that you were talking about (if by "cavern" you meant "diving hole" with no significant overhead), then good! In that case, no harm no foul.

My point in calling out your post was that experience is great, but the importance of training cannot be understated, particularly by the un(-der)trained. If it has been your experience that training is only for card-collecting to get the OK from dive ops, then you might do well to find different instructors. Cavern training is especially important for safe diving in the overhead environment, and unfortunately it is also especially variable in quality. My own experience is a good example - I took cavern twice because it was evident that the first class I took simply did not prepare me for the overhead environment. When I contacted a higher-up from the agency of my first training (PADI), I was told that there are two ways to teach cavern with that agency, 1) for OW divers who want to try it out once or twice in "benign" caverns, and 2) for divers who want to explore further and may want to pursue cave training. Obviously this double standard is problematic, but that is for another discussion as we're already well off-topic.

 

[Michael Guerrero]

I usually show a deco card and a solo card. There usually aren't other divers doing the dive I'm planning.

 

[Frontpointer1000]

Take offfense or not - cavern diving without training is stupid and dangerous.

If what you're saying now is that the site is not actually a cavern that you were talking about (if by "cavern" you meant "diving hole" with no significant overhead), then good! In that case, no harm no foul.

My point in calling out your post was that experience is great, but the importance of training cannot be understated, particularly by the un(-der)trained. If it has been your experience that training is only for card-collecting to get the OK from dive ops, then you might do well to find different instructors. Cavern training is especially important for safe diving in the overhead environment, and unfortunately it is also especially variable in quality. My own experience is a good example - I took cavern twice because it was evident that the first class I took simply did not prepare me for the overhead environment. When I contacted a higher-up from the agency of my first training (PADI), I was told that there are two ways to teach cavern with that agency, 1) for OW divers who want to try it out once or twice in "benign" caverns, and 2) for divers who want to explore further and may want to pursue cave training. Obviously this double standard is problematic, but that is for another discussion as we're already well off-topic.

There is no penetration, no overhead environment, and 100% in the light zone. Local dive shops use it to train ow divers all the time.

I certainly agree with you that experience and training are different. Further, training is a personal quest to get better, not to receive a piece of plastic that says I can dive here or there. It fascinated new, however, that people are so focused on the formal process of training. It certainly plays a role in scuba diving, but is not the only role. I would slap my son if he attempted a dive that he was not prepared to do. However, one of the most important parts of experience is knowing what one can tackle and when one should walk away.

as we all have, i've been diving with people who are exquisite divers and only have one c card: OW, although they may be diving sidemount, solo, and perhaps even deco. These are the original fathers of diving. Who trained the trainers?

 

[boulderjohn]

Likely due to our tourist industry here in SoFla, but a reality nonetheless. If a DM is nervous about someone I guarantee he's getting put with someone he's not nervous about.

Here is a South Florida example from a number of years ago.

I signed up for a dive the afternoon before, and the shop's owner did the work. I showed my instructor card, and we had a nice chat about where I did my work, what it was like, etc. The next day I showed up at the boat as a single diver. The DM said I needed a buddy. He did not ask a thing about me, and I (stupidly) did not volunteer anything. He went to a father and son and asked if it was OK if I dived with them. The father grunted, in a very unfriendly tone of voice, "I don't know. Does he know what he's doing?" The DM turned to me and said, "I don't know. Do you know what you're doing?" I told him I had a clue, and so I began to set up next to them. They were having trouble remembering how to set up their gear, and I saw them making several mistakes. I stepped in and showed them how to do it.

At that point the owner of the shop got on board. He saw me and came over to talk. He asked me who I was diving with, and I pointed to my new insta-buddies. His eyes grew wide. He immediately went to the other side of the boat, talked with some people, and I was suddenly grouped with a couple of excellent divers.

 

[Aotus]

...as we all have, i've been diving with people who are exquisite divers and only have one c card: OW, although they may be diving sidemount, solo, and perhaps even deco. These are the original fathers of diving. Who trained the trainers?

Well...seeing and meticulously evaluating the deaths of friends was the teacher for a lot of the original self-trained divers. In cave diving, there is a great book (here) in which a legend in the sport describes several near-death experiences for the reader so that we don't "re-learn" what those before training had to go through. While I understand your point, there are also many MANY posts here and on Facebook by those who skip the training and can't seem to understand why something or other isn't working right. Mentors can be great, but as a teacher myself (college, not scuba diving), I can tell you that dedicating oneself to the profession of teaching comes with insights into the learning process that expertise in a subject may not. This is why I believe that some things are more important to cover with a true expert, who also teaches.

All the abstract discussion aside, with a son in your charge, I suspect you will err on the side of caution and pursue the training for more advanced dives.

Cheers.

 

[_Ralph]

I just give them the card for the dive I want to do.

IE, Do I want nitrox? That card comes out
Do I want Helium? That card comes out
Do I want to Dive? That card comes out

Do I want to do 'my own thing'? I find an operator that will let me do my thing on their time, ahead of time.


Most places (that I've come across) will ask a few questions, either verbally, or in the paperwork such as number of dives, highest cert, last dive, deepest, etc.


Some of my most fun dives are on "follow the leader" dives ... but then again, i just wanted to go diving that day. No need to pull out a Hypoxic Trimix card for a shallow reef trip ...


_R

 

[hroark2112]

We went on a liveaboard in Turks & Caicos. I showed them my CCR instructor card and Advanced Nitrox. I was left alone for the week as were my buddies. I think it helps the boat crew when they know they don't have to worry about you. It definitely let them focus on some other divers who needed attention.

They did give me a bunch of crap about my purple wing and yellow force fins.

 

[boulderjohn]

've been diving with people who are exquisite divers and only have one c card: OW, although they may be diving sidemount, solo, and perhaps even deco. These are the original fathers of diving. Who trained the trainers?

As Aotus said, those original people learned the hard way, and we learn from those experiences without having to repeat them. In the book Aotus mentions, it says that in one year in Florida alone, at least 26 people died diving in caves. We learned from that, and because we take classes and gain certifications in those classes, it takes many years to get 26 deaths in caves across the entire world, not just Florida.

 

[lermontov]

Here is a South Florida example from a number of years ago.

I signed up for a dive the afternoon before, and the shop's owner did the work. I showed my instructor card, and we had a nice chat about where I did my work, what it was like, etc. The next day I showed up at the boat as a single diver. The DM said I needed a buddy. He did not ask a thing about me, and I (stupidly) did not volunteer anything. He went to a father and son and asked if it was OK if I dived with them. The father grunted, in a very unfriendly tone of voice, "I don't know. Does he know what he's doing?" The DM turned to me and said, "I don't know. Do you know what you're doing?" I told him I had a clue, and so I began to set up next to them. They were having trouble remembering how to set up their gear, and I saw them making several mistakes. I stepped in and showed them how to do it.

At that point the owner of the shop got on board. He saw me and came over to talk. He asked me who I was diving with, and I pointed to my new insta-buddies. His eyes grew wide. He immediately went to the other side of the boat, talked with some people, and I was suddenly grouped with a couple of excellent divers.

far too modest

 

[lermontov]

They did give me a bunch of crap about my purple wing and yellow force fins.

damn right