Does TEC supersede REC?

[Diver0001]

Well.... the assumption that is someone isn't diving at equal or better level than you or that they are not a personal contact or a "peer" -- however you think that should be defined -- that they are by definition "screwing up" and therefore not worthy to be your buddy or that the dive op is somehow engaged in unethical practices says a lot.... but not about those divers.

Personally I can't just switch off. I also find this to be an unusual attitude for someone who is an instructor. If I am in the water with other divers, whether they are my buddy or not, my radar for potential problems just doesn't go away. I literally don't understand how someone can think that if they are not personally responsible for someone else that they can just shut down and ignore what's going on around them.

That said, if you were to be in that position, then I can fully understand the desire to dive solo and away from groups of other divers. I can also fully understand the desire to engage in challenging dives with divers of equal ability. I just don't see that as being the only way to relax on vacation.

R..

 

[DevonDiver]

I just don't see that as being the only way to relax on vacation.

Where do you live and how often do you dive/teach?

One's concept of a vacation...of change... is defined by what their norm is.

 

[Diver0001]

Agreed. But that was a redirect. A moment ago we were addressing attutudes and assumptions about novice divers, and the OPs that provide services for them.

R..

 

[DevonDiver]

The OP asked about TEC divers going to rec diving operations.

The chatter changed to experienced divers (pro, tec whatever) being bundled to look after weaker clients.

This is the 'insta-buddy' debate... and it's the commonly given reason why some more experienced divers withhold the full extent of their certifications from dive operators.

My point of view on that is that weaker clients are the responsibility of the dive operator.

A truly responsible operator should recognise that if a client diver needed support for the dive, then they are ipso facto not able to conduct the dive to the level of their certification. They need some form of supervision... and the dive op chooses to conceal that through strategical misuse of other paying clients.

What should happen, as per agency standards, is that the weak diver is counselled onto a refresher... remediating any deficiencies so that they're then capable to attend dives unsupervised and with a buddy of equal certification.

 

[stuartv]

Personally I can't just switch off. I also find this to be an unusual attitude for someone who is an instructor. If I am in the water with other divers, whether they are my buddy or not, my radar for potential problems just doesn't go away. I literally don't understand how someone can think that if they are not personally responsible for someone else that they can just shut down and ignore what's going on around them.

I don't feel like anyone said to just switch off. Nobody said they would ignore everything around them or refuse to help another diver in trouble.

The point is, if you are buddied with someone, then you should be checking on them constantly and staying close to them. If they don't have good buddy skills and/or discipline, you could look around to see their fins disappearing around a corner and you would feel obligated to follow them.

I can totally understand wanting to dive where you don't have to keep tabs on somebody. Where you are free to go this way, even if they go that way.

A truly responsible operator should recognise that if a client diver needed support for the dive, then they are ipso facto not able to conduct the dive to the level of their certification. They need some form of supervision... and the dive op chooses to conceal that through strategical misuse of other paying clients.

I have to disagree. At the level being discussed - a recreational charter - it is well understood that most of their clients need to have a buddy. That does not automatically mean they need supervision or that they are not able to dive to the level of their certification. Most people's certification requires that they have a buddy. And in any buddy pair, it's pretty likely that one is going to have more training and/or experience than the other. When you are at the top of the training and experience pyramid, of course the vast majority of insta-buddies you are presented with are going to have much weaker dive skills than you have. I don't see anything whatsoever wrong with or irresponsible about a dive operator who needs to find a buddy for someone choosing to ask a more experienced diver to buddy up with that other diver - as long as the diver operator is perfectly okay with it if you decline.

 

[markmud]

I finished TDI Adv Nitrox/Deco recently (hooray for me!) and am putting my deco gear together still. Plans of a possible single-tank no-deco dive this weekend got me thinking about the typical charter boat waiver that asks your "highest" cert level and organization.

Sometimes I cater what I enter to the boat I'm on and if I want an insta-buddy, but that's not the focus of my curiosity. Especially while traveling, everyone wants to know if you know what you're doing and the c-card is the proof they accept. A buddy of mine even got a pass on the check-out dive in Cozumel after presenting his tec cert. I feel like technical training is a whole different branch of the scuba tree, albeit at a higher level. So, what do you answer when asked, especially on recreational level diving trips?

Hi Thundercleese,

Congrats on completing your Nitrox/Deco cert. Earlier this year I earned a PADI TEC 40 cert. Relative to the Rec SCUBA world, it is a comprehensive course. I felt I was much more of a candidate for the TEC 40 rather than going through the motions for a participation award, or cert.

I show my TEC 40 and self reliant/solo cert when asked for my bona fides by the crew. The TEC 40 card states on the face, 50% O2, and 10 minutes of deco (and the name of the cert indicates the depth limit or 40 meters (22 fathoms)).

So with the TEC 40, I am covered for nitrox to 50%, deep recreational diving to 130 feet, and a few minutes of deco (which is usually not allowed on a rec trip).

My solo cert has helped me to avoid the insta-buddy issue. It is also a guarantee that I have at least 100 dives (my solo instructor did review my log book as a prerequisite for the course, as he is supposed to). I don't travel with my log book--when we are diving an advanced site out of the chute, my solo cert and TEC 40 can help.

With these two certs, I can prove that I am not a newb OW diver. Does it work all of the time and get me past the enhanced interrogation by the DM who assumes I am a newb and who then requires me to perform a check-out dive, no!

Am I really answering your question? No.

I am a TEC diver in name only. The TEC40 is a cert for recreational divers that want a taste of TEC diving. Think training wheels on a bike--or entry level. A full-blown TEC diver may give you a better answer.

markm

 

[Frontpointer1000]

A little off topic, but within the confines of the spirit of the conversation: I consider the idea of a buddy as an appropriate level of redundancy to be laughable, incongruous, irresponsible and wholly inadequate.

What if, from the beginning, OW divers were taught principles of self-sufficiency, appropriate redundancies, personal responsibility, and instructed to dive solo on purpose? What if that was the baseline norm?

 

[Aotus]

My son, with 60ish dives (and only junior OW), has been in warm and cold water, fresh and salt, cavern, spring, good and bad vis. Shore, boat, night, day, etc.

The cards, as we all know, are just legal excuses for dive ops to manage liability.

Cavern diving with only (junior?) OW? I think a polite reminder is in order about another parent who thought similarly...

"Darrin Spivey was only certified to dive in the ocean. His son was not certified to dive at all. Although his family told us they studied and practiced considerably. Thomas said her 15-year-old step-grandson had been studying and doing dives in Beaufort Springs. Both father and son were “all about safety” Thomas said..."
SOURCE: Man and 15yr old son perish on Christmas day in Eagle's Nest cave

 

[Frontpointer1000]

Cavern diving with only (junior?) OW? I think a polite reminder is in order about another parent who thought similarly...

"Darrin Spivey was only certified to dive in the ocean. His son was not certified to dive at all. Although his family told us they studied and practiced considerably. Thomas said her 15-year-old step-grandson had been studying and doing dives in Beaufort Springs. Both father and son were “all about safety” Thomas said..."
SOURCE: Man and 15yr old son perish on Christmas day in Eagle's Nest cave

No one in his right mind would call Eagles Nest a cavern. It is foolish and stupid to do so. You dont know me nor my son so I will take no offense at whatever it is you are trying to communicate. To even compare my experience with this tragic story is ridiculous.

My description of my son's various (And relatively fewer total number of dives) diving experience was a contrast against someone else who had far more dives but all in the same place. Who had more"experience" is the question.

The cavern my son dives at is called "the crater" and is a spring with deposition of minerals around this underground hot spring. Go there on any day of the year and you will find three-five different instructors teaching open water, it is a rather (comparatively) benign diving hole, and in no way can be compared to eagles nest, which is a cave. If you know anything about that cave, you know it is a place sophisticated, well-trained CAVE divers go to.

Regarding your comparison, it makes as much sense to bring up that case as it does to discuss the Andrea Doria. My son, after all, has been on a few wreck dives...

As you should well know, both Eagles nest and the Andrea Doria have been described as the "Everest" of diving for caving and wrecks, respectively.

Mr. SPIVEY AND HIS SON HAD NO BUSINESS BEING IN EAGLES NEST. It is tragic, but unfortunately, a direct result of their poor decision making process.


I thank you for your "polite reminder"

 

[Frontpointer1000]

Re-reading your post, I guess I do take offense in that you compare my process of diving with my son to be "similar" to the above mentioned case. There is nothing similar at all.