Do certs matter to you?

[Bob]

Certifications mean very little to me, in that I view them as "If Joe Diver has X certification, he/she should be able to perform at Y level." As for verification, if I can get someone I know to vouch for the diver in question, I will do a "bunny" dive with them just to get a feel before we progress to anything fun and challenging. Funny thing is, I've got a whole pile of certs because I am an instructor, and I would feel very uncomfortable for anyone to accept that I am competent simply because of those pieces of plastic.

Well said. Divers who try to impress me with all their certs and speciality cards, don't. Like you, I want to be accepted because of my skill and ability as a diver. almtree:Bob

 

[Liveandletdive]

I am sure that I am going to get flamed here but how about this.

1. Some people simply like continuing education. Why is that wrong in your eyes? Some people want to have an instructor or DM along to make them feel safer, again it is not something you have to do why slam someone else. The cert cards are not always a macho thing, to some people it can simply be a confidence builder or a fun way to meet some new people and learn a skill the right way.

2. Just because you call yourself a hardcore deco diver with millions of solo dives blah blah blah. With a serious gear fetish, that anyone can see how serious you are just by looking at all the expensive and wisely chosen and well laid out equipment blah blah blah. Well......you too my friend may still be a total knob in the water.

3. The only way to truly know how someone dives to get wet with them. Certs are at least something tangible that you can look at. Combine that with your dive planning and discussions pre-dive will help you decide if you are going to descend with that diver you do not know, or if you are going to scrub the dive.

4. Like anything certs can be faked or bestowed on an unworthy diver, etc. But nice gear can be bought by a total dope too. And yes I understand that it is entirely possible that your "run of the mill" straight vanilla OW diver can be one of the best in the water column. And that is something you can only find out after a few dives and debriefs.

5. If you have had a bad experience with an agency/instructor you should have written down the name and instructor number and reported it. PADI is very serious about its people following the standards and will punish instructors who fail to follow them.

6. You can also learn something about a diver by the instructor that issued the card. That is why the instructors name and number (PADI) is on the card. If I do not know you, but know your instructor it will add to the information I know have.

Certs are not a replacement for experience, but it is a good way for SOME people to enjoy this SPORT (that took 98 lives last year. Granted only 10 were "tec" diveing related). If continuing education is not for you, cool. But don't run it down in front of new divers who may really benefit for a class or two.

 

[sngatlanta]

A guy walks into a dive shop and says "give me a tank of air".
The shop owner gives it to him?

 

[DFC5343]

The Navy has levels as well. I had a 5 year break in service so I had to redo the first four weeks of 2nd class school to become requalified for Deepsea Diver 2nd class (NEC5343). This mean't not only doing the academics but the PT and Hell Week(Pool Comp) over again. Anyone that has endured that knows. Anyway, The Navy demands all divers to make 6 dives in a six month period. If you are at a diving command...no worries. If your not it is up to you to piggyback with a command that is to keep up your own quals. You fail to do this you lose pay and your qualifications(pin). Now each level has a different level of expertise as well.
5345-SCUBA
5343-air
5342-mixed gas
5341-SAT
I forget what MDV is but you get the idea. Everyone of us have to maintain our qualifications every six month period and its up to us to do it. Now the civlian game plan is different as we all know. I hear the words...money, gear, bad instructing...yada yada. I for one think it is mainly something to give the everyday joe the chance to explore the ocean...not to make everyday joe an EXPERT. That seems to be the issue. # of cards...expert. Moving forward with your knowledge desire is a must and I for one will not jam anyone for it. I just would like the agencies to get organized, put out good teachers, use sound academic judgement and make it safe for all. Money is too many times the factor. Someone signs up 300 lbs. and makes it because he/she has paid the bucks. Wrong. Refund and make suggestions for improvment. There has to be a screening process and the agencies need to set up one. Just to get into Navy training there is a 1 1/2 mile run under 12:30, 50 push ups, 50 situps and six pullups...all with a 10min. break in between. I am not saying to make it militant but do something that will at least make less chamber rides for those who should have never been in the water to begin with. We as divers have the common sense to do what we do so maybe we need to use that as ground work to make it better. Diving is a perishable skill. Dive Safe.

 

[NAM001]

DFC5343

the pt when i took my original cert included a 1 mile swim (non-mil) those requirements are dead now. the goals are diferent in the military than for rec diving. its tha nature of the beast, the profeniency dives our ship divers did was jumpover the side suited and fill out a training report. so the dive commands were much better at maintaining realistic qual status. in port they are doing a couple of dives a day. that was so the ship divers did not have to do what was to a tender crew a routine task. you are 100% correct that the experience level varies in the military. you are also right that they all trained in the same panama city curriculum. the intensity and the seriousness ofhte training wount be found any where else.

what is maintained by military requirements qual profeciency standards is not the case in the rec world as all know. other than anual recerting in the rec world i know of no solution the thematter. but who needs it at that level. its recreational diving.

for the rec world it is a matter of pride and integrity that keeps us safe . that is something that can not be legislated. to try would kill the sport. one other benny of being a rec diver i can choose whom i dive with. and going out on the boat trip does not require me to dive as more than a 2 man team.

for me the equiviant pre ops and post ops briefings that the military does, i do here by reading others accounts of success and problems and remedies. even if i dont agree with them i at least have to think about it before dismissing it. and that is also a continued training opportunity in it self. after all how much of the stuff we see here is in a training course. or should it even be.

go navy

KWS

 

[GQMedic]

Huh? Excuse me? You've obviously NOT heard my LOUD and and VERY opinionated mouth at Corona Del Mar, where I as well as other instructors take their students to do their open water dives.

Another member here, Slowdiver, is also an Instructor for the guy I work for, Rick is his name, Rick can attest to my overzealous assertiveness and opinionated mouth. Rick is the "Nice, pleasant, voice of reason Instructor" (Of course, he's been an Instructor longer than I have and seems to have this nearly ZEN peaceful nature and calm about him that I am often jealous of) whereas I am the "opinionated, zero tollerance, whip crackin' MOUTHY Instructor". (Yes, I am soooo "Type A") And no, I don't teach underwater photography, I leave that for the people that actually know how to use a camera, I'm not one of them.

As far as taking control of my Instructor peers, I have to assert that control over another Instructor's class and teaching style is just not possible.

D,

I'm sorry, but I have to chime in. If instructors like you took more control of your instructor peers to stop the trend of greed vs. actual training, I think it would improve.

When LDS owners/instructors started giving divers flack about not having a certification for things like Dry Suit certs, I pretty much lost all faith in the system. Nitrox? Yes. Advanced Nitrox? Yes. Underwater Photographer? Come on!

J

.

 

[Cave Diver]

Simpathic jury could easily be swayed to the side of the grieving widow who's poor unqualified husband was brought to a dive site by that mean ole diver guy.

I believe I read that Captian Steve Belienda of the Wahoo required the signature of the next of kin on the liability release form. This demonstrated that the "grieving widow" was just as aware of the risks but agreed anyway. Kinda took the bite out of any lawsuit that might be filed.

 

[DFC5343]

It was a arrogant self serving instructor that made mask clearing a living hell for my son. Swimming in Catalina at 40ft. with mask off for a basic cert card. Save those heroics for the pool. The military doesn't even do that crap at sea. All pool work. We drill for the worst but that is simply stupid. I should have taught him myself. In fact I am schooling my youngest son and he will "buy" the basic when he earns his way. Until then I will prepare him. SCUBA instructors, and I mean most, are complete pomp and circumstance idiots. Its all about how cool your gear is and how in charge they are. I have axes to grind. I agree with KW. To regiment the rec diving industry would destroy it. It is what it is...fun. Just dive safe and use common sense.

 

[Genesis]

DING! DFC gets it.

 

[diverbrian]

my dollars are worth no less than others. i want to get the most out of any training i get. i put a lot of time into it. when i did my aow i spent a week doing it, reading reserching looking at products on the market that perhaps by the course guidelines/opinions had problems with them for my perticular body experience ect.

for anyone who knows me they only need to reference my inquireees on nitrox mixes and using tables for repeditive dives with out the use of the ead wheel. it drew its share of heat from the comments but it also brought up more questions on my part as well as others. i feel pretty competant with my abilities. i spent the bucks and it got me refresher, update, a c-card/ dive pass to events and prereq to further training. i will take a rescue course, not for myself but for those who throw away the knowledge and save the card.

in submarines there wan only one statistic that really mattered.

does surfaces equal dives???? IF NOT liberty is secured for all hands untill they match.

KWS

I thought that was a given. I would have loved to have taken liberty before that was true. But, that number did present a slight problem, LOL.

Brian (former ET2 (SS) )