Do certs matter to you?

[MechDiver]

I write of things I have seen, directly. Case in point: It didn't matter how much I had carefully studied, practiced, prepared with my DM buddy, ect.. regarding deep diving (for example). I was really sick of getting the "You are not qualified to dive deeper than 60 ft" speech from another one of your "instructor" peers who wasn't even with my buddy and I.

Although a well thought out and comprehensive post, most all of this was in regards to classes that you feel you were "forced" to take? Horsepucky. If you let some dinkhead talk you into to a class you feel you don't need, that is not a fault of the system. There are no police at the 60' line waiting for OW divers to cross-over.
If you need an AOW card to take a charter, its your choice whether you take the class or don't take the boat.
Same with the drysuit nonsense.

 

[Falcon99]

Although a well thought out and comprehensive post, most all of this was in regards to classes that you feel you were "forced" to take? Horsepucky. If you let some dinkhead talk you into to a class you feel you don't need, that is not a fault of the system. There are no police at the 60' line waiting for OW divers to cross-over.
If you need an AOW card to take a charter, its your choice whether you take the class or don't take the boat.
Same with the drysuit nonsense.

Absolutely. I agree it's not the "system", but rather a few greedy individuals out there who, IMHO, have lost focus.

I also knew that some of the charter boats required AOW. That was another factor in my decision to take it. It was nice, however, not to be harassed anymore I hope to have a better grip of things when I reach "veteren" status like you all here .

I like to vent about it every now and then

Thanks for the reply.

 

[WRKNUT]

The problem with this topic is that there are a lot of shops out there that are only in it for the certs, especially those in florida and the caribean. If you go to a shop that takes there training seriously than there is a big difference with people who take the training versus the one's that don't. The other thing is that divers have to relize that the only way you get better is through getting bottom time! If you take a class and than don't practice and use what you're taught than you're never going to get any better.

 

[GQMedic]

Oh? You should probably take that up with your son's instructor.

You're grinding your axe with the wrong guy.

Should you wish your son to "BUY" his cert, I'm sure there's a sport chalet near by who will SELL you one. Of course, should you wish your son to EARN it, drop me a line. He'll of course, have fun, he'll also LEARN as he EARNS the cert.

Are there arrogant instructors? Of course there are, arrogance isn't limited to the scuba industry. Am I arrogant? Actually, yes, I am. Am I "mean" to my students and insist they go diving at catalina without a mask at 40 feet? Ok, hold the phone, that just sounds silly. I require my OW students to perform mask clears, after that, I rather they wear their masks, call it silly, but, umm, I like the idea of my student divers being able to see the cool things that can be found at depth. Am I pomp? Maybe! Am I an idiot? Hmm, my ex wife often thinks so.

The rec diving industry is regimented to a point, or at least it's supposed to be. Alas, true enough, it is what it is. And yes, it's supposed to be fun, and, students are required to demonstrate proficiency in the basics (The part I call WORK) before we go "touring" (The part I call FUN). Since priorities are important to me, it's WORK first, then FUN.

You said, you feel you should have taught him yourself, now that's not too bad of an idea. Perhaps you should become an instructor? While ITC is kind of a pain, there is an element of fun to it, after which, when you're teaching, there's fun in that as well. I don't just teach "classes", I also teach friends and family (Good hook for me, as I gain dive buddies in this manner) in private classes. You have some axes to grind with the industry, there's a good place to start, grind them, certainly, but do so where it will actually do something.

I have two teen aged sons I am awaiting for them to become cerious enough about scuba to where I will hear the words "Dad, teach me how to dive". (At present time, they are interested in moto-cross racing) There's the satisfaction that I will know what they will know how to do as divers, after all, I'll be their instructor. How cool is THAT?

It was a arrogant self serving instructor that made mask clearing a living hell for my son. Swimming in Catalina at 40ft. with mask off for a basic cert card. Save those heroics for the pool. The military doesn't even do that crap at sea. All pool work. We drill for the worst but that is simply stupid. I should have taught him myself. In fact I am schooling my youngest son and he will "buy" the basic when he earns his way. Until then I will prepare him. SCUBA instructors, and I mean most, are complete pomp and circumstance idiots. Its all about how cool your gear is and how in charge they are. I have axes to grind. I agree with KW. To regiment the rec diving industry would destroy it. It is what it is...fun. Just dive safe and use common sense.

 

[GQMedic]

I love it!

My instructor wall hanger diploma from ITC hangs on my wall along with other diplomas I have. I'm rather proud of it. And, I actually keep every c-card I've ever EARNED in my wallet, I'm rather proud of them. The recognition of my accomplishment means alot to me. I might even consider earning "Instructor Trainer" sometime down the road. Although I still assert, I am particularly proud of the Instructor cert, that one was pretty challenging.

Wow....I guess many of you have had bad experiences! True, getting a card means very little...as does getting your college diploma....or getting recognition at work....well I guess life is pointless if you think about it cause, well, we're all gonna die at some point! Right? Come on folks! It is human nature to want some sort of recognition along the way..be it a college diploma that says "You know what, you've worked hard and gained some knowledge, keep it up" or your boss and co-workers letting you know that you're doing a "bang up job" and "we appreciate you" or even a dive agency telling you "you learned a few new skills and you kept diving; well done here's a card, a badge and a new book". It's obvious, by the opinions expressed on this thread, that additional courses arn't for everyone. However, I would be ready to bet some $$$ that all of you have seeked recognition, in some form or another, at one time or another throughout your diving career. If taking a few courses makes me feel good about my diving and/or about myself, what's the problem? One last thing..the agency/dive industry bashing thing is getting old...of course the industry isn't perfect and alot of things can and should be changed. A good friend once told me: if you don't like the curent state of affairs, you have 3 options: 1. Stay, complain and do nothing about it, 2.Stay, complain and change it or 3. Leave. Just my 2 canadian cents!

 

[GQMedic]

Falcon,

*chuckle* Ahh, my rantings, I have a few "buttons" that inspire me so when they happen, but they do happen. The things that provoke me so do so only because I actually DO care. I dive because I love diving. I'm very much so safety minded, I want to be able to keep diving. I teach diving because I am genuinely interested in perpetuating diving.

There are times, when I am teaching, when in mid lecture, I will find one or two students with vacant eyed expressions, then I get that feeling inside that says "Hmmm, did I miss a step in my presentation"? But I'll pick on that subject till everyone gets it. I believe in the system in which I teach. Should I not, then I've wasted my time in becomming an instructor.

I also realize there will be divers I will have taught, who don't take diving as seriously as I do, who will ignore what I have taught them, or cease to practice it, like any skill, if you don't use it, you lose it. This, while beyond my control, I also lecture on that point. I give them the "tools" and I show them how to use them. I require them to demonstrate whan they have learned, I quiz them, then, they tour with me, look around, when the program is over, I give them a handshake and wish them well. I often wonder which ones I will see again locally, or in a continuing education class, some, are taking the class so they can be certified as they have vacation plans in some warm tropical and exotic place (I've not yes bee successful in getting one to smuggle me to these destinations in their luggage)

I also think about that they will soon posess a card with my name on it, and it says they are competant at the level indicated, and since I am a relative new instructor, I also think "Did I teach them in a manner that was the very best that I could"? I evaluate my presentations, my demonstrations, even the questions I ask in my quizzes. I spend alot of time considering "quality improvement" in the delivery of the courses I teach. I might even one day "perfect" it to where I am "satisfied" with the end result.

I can only hope their C-cards mean something to my former students as it meant alot to me when I certified them.

LOL, Dennis, no I haven't read your rant, but will look for it now! I was just venting on what I see (from a diver with AOW and only about 50 dives, but an ex-aviator type) is a very annoying double standard type of teaching. I HAVE to say, though, that it worries me to read your last sentence and then remember all the ranting on how this is a "self-regulating" sport.

I write of things I have seen, directly. Case in point: It didn't matter how much I had carefully studied, practiced, prepared with my DM buddy, ect.. regarding deep diving (for example). I was really sick of getting the "You are not qualified to dive deeper than 60 ft" speech from another one of your "instructor" peers who wasn't even with my buddy and I. (we were taking quick, safely planned, bounce dives to 90 feet at a dam to check equipment and wetsuit quality). I finally paid for an AOW class (at another LDS) to stop the madness. The AOW course was nothing more than paying $100+ to do the same dives I had done a month earlier in Cozumel. I'm not saying it was a joke, because I enjoyed training with an instructor. HOWEVER, I had studied several dive manuals and had 40+ dives under my belt before the class. The other guy taking the class had just graduated from basic OW. He learned NOTHING from that class. I had to teach him how to calculate surface intervals and use dive tables - DURING AOW!!

Fast forward a few months. A diving friend buys a dry-suit and gets the same speeches about not having the "specialty cert" and is therefore not qualified to dive in it. Forget that the guy is a frikken engineer designing future weapon systems. One would think his studying and careful practicing with another dry-suit buddy would be enough. Nope, he breaks down and pays for the "course". He was really upset when it was over. He watched a quick video and had one dive. "there you go, yer qualified now" So much for the credibility of that certification.

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm a bit too arrogant in my speaking or perception of things therein. I don't mean to be - really! I don't have thousands of dives under my belt like most of you out there, so I honestly don't know many details - that will come later.

I DO know that I went through hell in Navy Pilot training, specifically the water parts. Anyone out there remember water survival school in API? (I was one of those clueless AF guys who suffered through it - but dammit, I swam that mile in the flightsuit!)

It didn't matter how careful I was, how prepared I was with "chair-flying" the dive before-hand, how much we prepared for any emergencies, ect.. I hadn't paid someone $150 for the card.

I think many other divers agree that there are a few certs that are important - BOW, AOW, Nitrox are among the top of that list. Cave cert, oh yeah. A must if you are one of those. (I think you cave dudes are crazy, personally ). Wreck diver - definately a must because of the hazards and specifics. Deco Diver - yes, if you intend to do deco dives. The same goes for the other extended list with tri-mix, ect... These guys also have hellish prereq's.

Dry Suit? A waste of money. Find a more experienced, patient buddy, do some reading, and learn the process. Save the money and buy some more toys.

My personal opinion is that your end-result skill boils down about three things - your ability to (1) control fear/anxiety (panic control - all levels therein), (2) learning to adapt to the new environment effectively (time obtained comfort) and (3)your desire to truly study, learn, and practice enough to achieve whatever it is you need to master.

(study, watch, practice, master, repeat).

OK, I'm done ranting for a while...

Sorry, Dennis...

 

[TCooperWFI]

Absolutely great.
If it doesn't mean anything, it's not worth anything.
If you're serious, you'll receive a serious education.

 

[NAM001]

REF FALCON99 MESSAGE 90

WELL SAID. training requirements are sometimes stupid and when there is $ involved it does tend to dictate the necessity for it. maybe one day there will be a $50 course for split fins with fresh and salt water endorcements. thats ok though i still have my rockets. LOL All aside there are some courses that are inportant to have and your assesment of them i agree with totally. cant specifically speak about the dry suit as i have not to date use one. one day though, one day,

KWS

 

[DeepScuba]

I guess I can say I am in the process of earning all the certs I currently own.

A licence to learn, so to speak.

I can't expect to fully understand and learn what I am supposed to be learning for any given cert, because it takes more time than the course has.

Shoot, I'm still learning stuff I think I should have known when I got specific certs. I find it hard to fault an instructor for me only "getting it" enough to pass, but still requiring more to be refined in the certification at hand.

A license to "get better". Happily, I don't live in a vacuum, and my continuance in learning has come from my personal motivation to be better than I am.

Not all people/divers are going to WANT to take it as far as a few of us do. And they shouldn't HAVE to. This isn't the military!

All in all, I guess most divers don't know how $hitty they really are. That being said, very few of them die in scuba diving accidents either.

It's just the way it is.

P.S. Genesis:

Even though I hear ya buddy (RE cert before doing specific dives) I think ya gotta understand their side of it. Just because it's an SOP to have AOW, Deco, Trimix, whatever for a given dive, they can't start makign exceptions for anyone. This would open up the flood gates of anarchy, and why would they waste their time on one guy bucking the system with his hard-to-duplicate dive log??? They wouldn't even get that far in the arguement. Get the cert or forget about it, is their answer. It absolves THEM. Just because you HAVE done numerous deco dives doesn't mean you've necessarily covered the material for doing deco dives properly.

I'm sure you get what I'm saying, and you can understand their stance, whether you agree with it or not.

If I was in their shoes, I'd do the same thing.......UNLESS I PERSONALLY knew you. The exact same way as the crew of the Seeker who did the Doria and never had trimix training, whereas all the paying customers had to.

Chris Murley had the "log" too. He had the pre-req's and the instructors blessing. Of course it was all BS too, but no one on the crew was successfully sued either.


Sure it's a double standard..what's your point


P.P.S. Don't the let the above P.S. ruin an otherwise thoughtful post before that.

 

[DeepScuba]

One more thing Genesis buddy:

I'll fall in your camp the first time some NC crew tells me I can't wear my drysuit cause I don't have the card!!!

hehehhe

Well, there's a difference. Deco diving, Trimix diving etc AIN'T drysuit diving. (The learning curves are entirely different, and so is the general risk).