Do certs matter to you?

[Genesis]

All I'm saying is that the certs are increasing worthless.

Even technical ones.

Just ask Murley. Well, ok, ask his ghost. Seance required, unfortunately.

I think we're awfully close, if not already at, the point where we just need to throw up our hands and say "f@#k it" on certifications. Make clear the intended dive, the probable conditions, the expected skills to do it safely, and let people self-certify that they meet 'em - and waive all liability if they're lying.

Let instruction be purchased for the sake of instruction.

Look, if I want to ski a black diamond, I can. It might be stupid of me to do so, and in fact, if I lose control I might die. Hitting a tree at 60mph is not pretty - I've seen the results (and yes, the skiier who did died.)

Yet there is nobody at the top of that black diamond hill checking my ski certification card. There isn't even a grim reaper sign, as there are at the entrance to caves. There is only the black diamond, and sometimes, below it, the word "expert."

Often you can't even see what kind of crap you're in for until you get partway down the run. The pucker factor can get VERY intense.

I used to ski semi-competitively. Every winter we'd see people crack up BAD on those hills. Someone who clearly didn't know what they were doing. There were black diamonds that I was damn careful with; oh I'd ski 'em, but I'd take my sweet-butt time at it. On the other hand there were those that were just plain fast, but not particularly tricky - those never bothered me. New ones that I hadn't been on before at some mountain new to me got a REAL careful go-through before I'd do a "balls-out" run - I liked my legs in one piece, thank you very much.

Nonetheless I broke three pairs of skis in two years in high school, and every one of those incidents was accompanied by a really ugly "wild world of sports type" of "agony of defeat" fall (ever see that leader? Its pretty cool..... trust me - that doesn't feel good.)

My grand total of skiing lessons? One, when I was a kid. The rest was self-taught. I'm still here, and while I had several REAL close calls, I never broke anything.

Anyone who says diving is more dangerous has never skiied serious alpine hills. It only LOOKS easy (and, if you stay on the green circles, it mostly is.)

I cannot recall one weekend that someone wasn't carted off Sugarloaf on a gurney by the ski patrol. Indeed, we used to rate the crack-ups on the hill called "awful-awful" (it was) on the ride up - it was right next to the main chair, and it was lots of fun watching people bust themselves up on it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I love it!

My instructor wall hanger diploma from ITC hangs on my wall along with other diplomas I have. I'm rather proud of it. And, I actually keep every c-card I've ever EARNED in my wallet, I'm rather proud of them. The recognition of my accomplishment means alot to me. I might even consider earning "Instructor Trainer" sometime down the road. Although I still assert, I am particularly proud of the Instructor cert, that one was pretty challenging.

I still have all my cards too although they don't fit in a wallet so they're in a box. I don't know exactly where the box is but I'm sure we didn't throw it away because it makes for a good reminder. When I still had my shop I had a whole wall full of the wall hangers. After packing up the shop I did loose track of them though.

Maybe it would make an interesting post to list all the certs and describe where I now think my learning curve looked like at the time. They are interesting to look at and think about what was going through my head at the time.

There isn't any thing wrong with being proud of what you've done but, IMO, you should be more proud of the effort you put in and what you achieved more than the card because cards can be deceiving.

I am learning more, at a faster rate now than at any other time in my diving career and there really aren't any more cards to get. Does that make any sense? I have all the cards but I'm just starting to get the hang of things.

There is learning way beyond any card.

 

[NAM001]

genisis

pushing of luck as a learning tool is not that smart either. fortunately you learned/mastered enough skills to get you through. then again one unexpected gieco squirel could have put the screws to you.

 

[Genesis]

genisis

pushing of luck as a learning tool is not that smart either. fortunately you learned/mastered enough skills to get you through. then again one unexpected gieco squirel could have put the screws to you.

True enough. I was young, stupid, and superman. You know, like most teen boys? I won't tell you what I used to play with when I was a kid (hint: they often went "bang", most of the time intentionally )

I'm now older, at least somewhat wiser, and I no longer believe I'm superman. As a consequence I approach diving more than bit differently than I approached skiing.

Nonetheless, the point stands - nobody "carded" me on the ski slopes, and I saw first hand more people than I can count get seriously injured and at least one person die.

I've yet to see anyone get either seriously injured or die while diving.

I am increasingly convinced that the "card game" is worthless and needs to go away.

 

[bwerb]

I actually look at rockclimbing and mountaineering as close analogies to diving. If you want to climb...you find an instructor or a close friend to start teaching you the basics. There is no certification. You can get in over your head very very quickly. Mistakes can cause major bodily harm or death in a heartbeat but again...there is NO certification. You can show-up at the local climbing shop or go online to REI and buy every piece of gear you would need to climb the North Face of the Eiger in wintertime, climb Half-Dome or summit K2, with NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

Climbing is all about personal responsibility. Every piece of gear (every single carabiner) has a HUGE warning label and pamphlet attached stating very clearly that climbing can get you killed and that you need to get adequete professional instruction. Guess what...climbing equipment is well nigh bombproof and the injuries sustained have more or less one of two distinct causes...user error, unanticipated environmental issues. Not too many lawsuits in the climbing/mountaneering fraternity because everyone takes responsibility for both their own training and their own climbs.

I kinda like that. The training available is phenomenal and you take it because you sincerely want to learn. It also can be very expensive but again...it's worth it.

Food for thought.

 

[divemed06]

True enough. I was young, stupid, and superman. You know, like most teen boys? I won't tell you what I used to play with when I was a kid (hint: they often went "bang", most of the time intentionally )

I'm now older, at least somewhat wiser, and I no longer believe I'm superman. As a consequence I approach diving more than bit differently than I approached skiing.

Nonetheless, the point stands - nobody "carded" me on the ski slopes, and I saw first hand more people than I can count get seriously injured and at least one person die.

I've yet to see anyone get either seriously injured or die while diving.

I am increasingly convinced that the "card game" is worthless and needs to go away.

Genesis...you're ski analogy is interesting, however, the difference with diving is that no matter how steep the slope is, you can always take your skis or board off and walk down. Furthermore, the learning/danger curve for skiing is alot less steap than it is for diving; how many dive shops have you seen running "Tiny Tot" classes for the 4 and 5 year olds. BTW, I worked for a heli-ski company out west for a couple of years and all skiers would have to show us their skills prior to taking them to the deep stuff.

 

[Genesis]

Genesis...you're ski analogy is interesting, however, the difference with diving is that no matter how steep the slope is, you can always take your skis or board off and walk down. Furthermore, the learning/danger curve for skiing is alot less steap than it is for diving; how many dive shops have you seen running "Tiny Tot" classes for the 4 and 5 year olds. BTW, I worked for a heli-ski company out west for a couple of years and all skiers would have to show us their skills prior to taking them to the deep stuff.

You CANNOT just take your skis or board off and walk down a lot of these slopes. No way in hell.

Awful-awful was one of those hills. You were actually MORE likely to get hurt if you attempted that, because there was no way you'd stay in control or even on your feet attempting to walk it down.

Your BEST bet was to do it one mogul at a time, very, very slowly if you found yourself in over your head. This, however, did require a certain basic amount of control (like the ability to stop in the first place); if you could only snowplow you were just plain screwed.

Its one thing if you have deep powder and can "trudge" through it. Its another on a well-skiied slope with hardpack (or worse, ice!) and VW-size moguls with a slope that would be difficult to climb up in the SUMMER when there is no snow on it at all.

Bowls are another example of this - if you find yourself over the edge of one of those you have no choice but to ski it down - they're damn close to vertical and you CANNOT walk down those.

You MIGHT be able to slide down them on your butt, but that's gonna be ugly too, and the odds of "balling up" (I saw that a few times and it was good for a LOT of laughs) and getting hurt that way is pretty good.

I've never heli-skiied - at this point my boards and boots have been in the garage for close to 10 years. I'm quite sure that while I can still do it, there ain't no way I'm going near anything with a black diamond on it any time soon if I was to go back to a ski slope..... I decided I hated snow

 

[GQMedic]

Mike,

The card is that little "token" that everything I did to get there was "summed up" and incapsulated into.

To be frank with you about the effort I put into and how I achieved my Instructor rating, when I think back on it, I remember it being very hard, with each new segment, I was often very negative, with my family hearing me say "I'm going to fail this" or "It's just a matter of time before the bomb is dropped". There were some fun moments of ITC, my silly mistakes, watching my orals get shredded in evaluation from time to time, I remember hating orals ALOT. I also remember, my Instructor trainer pulling vanishing acts with my students while I was "escorting", etc, just to show me how fast they could take off when I took more than two seconds to look around and count divers. I even had a shouting match with my Instructor trainer on the side of the road in my car. When in ITC, I really didn't think I was going to make it. Then, when it was over, I got the handshake, the "well done" and the sign off, I think I stood there, vacant eyed, blinking with that "HUH"? expression. I remember BOLTING home with my signed off NAUI Instructor app just in case my course director would have a change of mind. I was probably snarling like a dog in posession of a meaty bone with that piece of paper in my hand.

I think I stared at that piece of paper for a few hours before I zipped it off with a check to NAUI. It took some time before it became "real". Even after the card arrived, it didn't feel "real" for a while. When I got the wall hanger in the mail, still, I stared at it. I wasnt sure just what I had accomplished. Then, a few weeks later, my first Instructor job came up (Mind you, this was not all THAT long ago) and all the sudden, it got VERY real, very quick. I was even nervous.

As I mentioned, that card, now, sums it all up, somehow, stuffing the whole event into it. It's funny that I am talking about cards at this moment. My renewal Instructor card arrived in the mail today. I'm stil proud of that card, it represents everything that went into earning it.

*snip* There isn't any thing wrong with being proud of what you've done but, IMO, you should be more proud of the effort you put in and what you achieved more than the card because cards can be deceiving. *unsnip*

 

[DeepScuba]

I still think the skiing thing isn't analogis(sp??)

Breaking a leg or back is one thing, but drowning or DCS is quite another. One is severe pain, the other is death, or at best (DCS) severe pain (So I've been told).

I fail to see how one could "Butt-slide" through a DCS hit or having no air to breathe

They aren't the same.

I also have a tough time, regardless of how poor the "typical diver" may or may not be, in saying "Screw it" to certification.

This certainly would only serve to lower the bar even further, and that's the truth.

 

[scubasean]

I still think the skiing thing isn't analogis(sp??)

Breaking a leg or back is one thing, but drowning or DCS is quite another. One is severe pain, the other is death, or at best (DCS) severe pain (So I've been told).

I fail to see how one could "Butt-slide" through a DCS hit or having no air to breathe

They aren't the same.

I also have a tough time, regardless of how poor the "typical diver" may or may not be, in saying "Screw it" to certification.

This certainly would only serve to lower the bar even further, and that's the truth.

I think they are indeed analogous...

Just as you can get mildly hurt, or alternatively very dead in scuba, so can you get both conditions in skiing...

But, there are also differences...Diving to ten feet and breathing off the tank, holding your breath and surfacing can get you killed quite nicely...And folks who haven't been coached at least minimally prior to diving the first time (even as they purchase the gear) are headed that direction...Whereas, the skier isn't likely to look at the double black diamond hill and say..."I've never been skiing before, lets start here...."

And, there are signs all over the place (and on the maps) at the ski slopes I've been to that inform the skier of the level of experience recommended for the given slope.

I agree that training is what scuba needs, not necessarily cards...But, I do want a card, if only to show myself that I finished a course...When I got out of college, I received a diploma that few outside my family have ever seen, but I like it on the wall...