Do certs matter to you?

[divemed06]

Wow....I guess many of you have had bad experiences! True, getting a card means very little...as does getting your college diploma....or getting recognition at work....well I guess life is pointless if you think about it cause, well, we're all gonna die at some point! Right? Come on folks! It is human nature to want some sort of recognition along the way..be it a college diploma that says "You know what, you've worked hard and gained some knowledge, keep it up" or your boss and co-workers letting you know that you're doing a "bang up job" and "we appreciate you" or even a dive agency telling you "you learned a few new skills and you kept diving; well done here's a card, a badge and a new book". It's obvious, by the opinions expressed on this thread, that additional courses arn't for everyone. However, I would be ready to bet some $$$ that all of you have seeked recognition, in some form or another, at one time or another throughout your diving career. If taking a few courses makes me feel good about my diving and/or about myself, what's the problem? One last thing..the agency/dive industry bashing thing is getting old...of course the industry isn't perfect and alot of things can and should be changed. A good friend once told me: if you don't like the curent state of affairs, you have 3 options: 1. Stay, complain and do nothing about it, 2.Stay, complain and change it or 3. Leave. Just my 2 canadian cents!

 

[DennisS]

A guy walks into a dive shop and says "give me a tank of air".
The shop owner gives it to him?

Used to be that way, then they decided the diver should have some basic proficiency proof THEN they decided there was a hell of a lot of money in selling those cards. Wanna be an instructor in 100 dives, break out the card that counts, the credit card.

 

[diverbrian]

Uh, well, in my case you'd have to make quite a stretch to think that the log was forged - its a dive computer download. It'd be quite a ***** to sit out there on a boat and put the thing on a shotline just to "fake" the log printout......

Since the log has graphs of the dives, the detail there is pretty intense - to enter that by hand would take a very long time.

I use the same type of log. I download every dive off my Cobra and Vytec and put it in a binder with a picture of me diving and the appropriate year. (ie. 2002 is a small binder and 2003 is a fair bit thicker). These would be very difficult to forge.

Remember, I did say that I thought that a divelog should count. That is all the captain where I dive would ask. He wouldn't ask about the gear. He would watch you confidently sent it up. You wouldn't know that he has these rules and you would be in the water. The only reason that I know about them is that I talked with him and the topic came up.

As to the drysuit cert., I have one. I was taught to use it the way that you described and quickly forget that, LOL. I paid good money for a BC (single tank) or Dive Rite BP/W for a reason. I might as well get my use out them.

I did learn how to arrest an uncontrolled ascent (air in the boots) and about flooding the suit if I really had to on a stuck vent/power inflator. Those are handy things to learn and I had never dived that type of suit before. There were other tricks to the trade that I was taught as well. This included proper suit maintenance. It was worth the cost as it added to my confidence level at the time.

I agree that someone like you would be more capable than the average Adv. Nitrox student. Would the card be nice? Yes it would! I would cover the dive operator's butt. Would I dive with you or the new guy, if not in professional status that dive? If I was trying to help someone out, I would take the new guy with the ink still on his card. If I wanted to actually "just dive", I would rather dive with you (card or not). I may even ask for tips. This is what I meant about observing the diver for how capable they are.

 

[TCDiver1]

I use the same type of log. I download every dive off my Cobra and Vytec and put it in a binder with a picture of me diving and the appropriate year. (ie. 2002 is a small binder and 2003 is a fair bit thicker). These would be very difficult to forge.

Brian,
WOW! .... you wouldn't be impressed with my logbook.

 

[Scott M]

I believe I read that Captian Steve Belienda of the Wahoo required the signature of the next of kin on the liability release form. This demonstrated that the "grieving widow" was just as aware of the risks but agreed anyway. Kinda took the bite out of any lawsuit that might be filed.

That was a very smart move on Steves part but how many operates require that the SO sign the form also. And for that matter how many SO's WOULD sign a form or be very pleased about diving in general for their SO if this was required. Of course that was also some extreme diving and not always under the best conditions or done for the right reasons.

Great book BTW.

 

[chickdiver]

It was a arrogant self serving instructor that made mask clearing a living hell for my son. Swimming in Catalina at 40ft. with mask off for a basic cert card. Save those heroics for the pool. The military doesn't even do that crap at sea. All pool work. We drill for the worst but that is simply stupid. I should have taught him myself. In fact I am schooling my youngest son and he will "buy" the basic when he earns his way. Until then I will prepare him. SCUBA instructors, and I mean most, are complete pomp and circumstance idiots. Its all about how cool your gear is and how in charge they are. I have axes to grind. I agree with KW. To regiment the rec diving industry would destroy it. It is what it is...fun. Just dive safe and use common sense.

Youmake several very valid points. I got so sick of that side of the industry, that I have only taught private classes, on request forthe last 5 yeas or so/ One of the first things my students hear is "Diving is supposed to be fun, if you aren't having fun, then we aren;t doing something right, and I need to know."

 

[MikeFerrara]

*shakes head*

The level of respect (lack of) shown for certification and continuing education in this thread by some of our more experienced members disgusts me.

Respect is earned and the providers of that education have earned every bit of that respect too.

The Navy requirements are - as in any country - far tougher than any sports diving course in existance.

funny you mention that. Not long ago I saw a documentary on US SEAL traiing. It was tough. They were harrasses big time. They had their gear torn off and there were lots of stamina skills. They never showed them really dive though. All the training shown was mostly while kneeling on the bottom. During most of the training shown they didn't even have any kind of buoyancy control device. they were using double hose regs and I guess that's because they were preparing for rebreathers? At the end of the show they showed these guys diving on the job (in rebreathers). While they are no doubt very tough men and are no doubt capable of doing the job they were trained to do there wasn't a single one who would have graduated my OW class because their technique was terrible. They were head up/foot down trim, negatively buoyant and kicking to maintain depth. If there was a silty bottom within 15 ft the vis would instantly be zero.

I guess they're trained to something totally different. If they were going to dive with us they'd need retraining from the start.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Dive Rescue International (public safety diver training) certifications also expire.

Any other expiring certs?

No thanfully.

A card is (or should be) a certificate of training completion and nothing more. Like a degree, it says nothing about your ability to perform years later and doesn't need to.

Once I complete training, pay the bill and get my certificate of completion, my business with the agency ends.

 

[Cave Diver]

Youmake several very valid points. I got so sick of that side of the industry, that I have only taught private classes, on request forthe last 5 yeas or so/ One of the first things my students hear is "Diving is supposed to be fun, if you aren't having fun, then we aren;t doing something right, and I need to know."

Were you having fun during your last dive on the Dry Docks? <g>

 

[Falcon99]

Huh? Excuse me? You've obviously NOT heard my LOUD and and VERY opinionated mouth at Corona Del Mar, where I as well as other instructors take their students to do their open water dives.

Another member here, Slowdiver, is also an Instructor for the guy I work for, Rick is his name, Rick can attest to my overzealous assertiveness and opinionated mouth. Rick is the "Nice, pleasant, voice of reason Instructor" (Of course, he's been an Instructor longer than I have and seems to have this nearly ZEN peaceful nature and calm about him that I am often jealous of) whereas I am the "opinionated, zero tollerance, whip crackin' MOUTHY Instructor". (Yes, I am soooo "Type A") And no, I don't teach underwater photography, I leave that for the people that actually know how to use a camera, I'm not one of them.

As far as taking control of my Instructor peers, I have to assert that control over another Instructor's class and teaching style is just not possible.

.

LOL, Dennis, no I haven't read your rant, but will look for it now! I was just venting on what I see (from a diver with AOW and only about 50 dives, but an ex-aviator type) is a very annoying double standard type of teaching. I HAVE to say, though, that it worries me to read your last sentence and then remember all the ranting on how this is a "self-regulating" sport.

I write of things I have seen, directly. Case in point: It didn't matter how much I had carefully studied, practiced, prepared with my DM buddy, ect.. regarding deep diving (for example). I was really sick of getting the "You are not qualified to dive deeper than 60 ft" speech from another one of your "instructor" peers who wasn't even with my buddy and I. (we were taking quick, safely planned, bounce dives to 90 feet at a dam to check equipment and wetsuit quality). I finally paid for an AOW class (at another LDS) to stop the madness. The AOW course was nothing more than paying $100+ to do the same dives I had done a month earlier in Cozumel. I'm not saying it was a joke, because I enjoyed training with an instructor. HOWEVER, I had studied several dive manuals and had 40+ dives under my belt before the class. The other guy taking the class had just graduated from basic OW. He learned NOTHING from that class. I had to teach him how to calculate surface intervals and use dive tables - DURING AOW!!

Fast forward a few months. A diving friend buys a dry-suit and gets the same speeches about not having the "specialty cert" and is therefore not qualified to dive in it. Forget that the guy is a frikken engineer designing future weapon systems. One would think his studying and careful practicing with another dry-suit buddy would be enough. Nope, he breaks down and pays for the "course". He was really upset when it was over. He watched a quick video and had one dive. "there you go, yer qualified now" So much for the credibility of that certification.

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm a bit too arrogant in my speaking or perception of things therein. I don't mean to be - really! I don't have thousands of dives under my belt like most of you out there, so I honestly don't know many details - that will come later.

I DO know that I went through hell in Navy Pilot training, specifically the water parts. Anyone out there remember water survival school in API? (I was one of those clueless AF guys who suffered through it - but dammit, I swam that mile in the flightsuit!)

It didn't matter how careful I was, how prepared I was with "chair-flying" the dive before-hand, how much we prepared for any emergencies, ect.. I hadn't paid someone $150 for the card.

I think many other divers agree that there are a few certs that are important - BOW, AOW, Nitrox are among the top of that list. Cave cert, oh yeah. A must if you are one of those. (I think you cave dudes are crazy, personally ). Wreck diver - definately a must because of the hazards and specifics. Deco Diver - yes, if you intend to do deco dives. The same goes for the other extended list with tri-mix, ect... These guys also have hellish prereq's.

Dry Suit? A waste of money. Find a more experienced, patient buddy, do some reading, and learn the process. Save the money and buy some more toys.

My personal opinion is that your end-result skill boils down about three things - your ability to (1) control fear/anxiety (panic control - all levels therein), (2) learning to adapt to the new environment effectively (time obtained comfort) and (3)your desire to truly study, learn, and practice enough to achieve whatever it is you need to master.

(study, watch, practice, master, repeat).

OK, I'm done ranting for a while...

Sorry, Dennis...