Do certs matter to you?

[DFC5343]

Oh? You should probably take that up with your son's instructor.

You're grinding your axe with the wrong guy.

Should you wish your son to "BUY" his cert, I'm sure there's a sport chalet near by who will SELL you one. Of course, should you wish your son to EARN it, drop me a line. He'll of course, have fun, he'll also LEARN as he EARNS the cert.

Are there arrogant instructors? Of course there are, arrogance isn't limited to the scuba industry. Am I arrogant? Actually, yes, I am. Am I "mean" to my students and insist they go diving at catalina without a mask at 40 feet? Ok, hold the phone, that just sounds silly. I require my OW students to perform mask clears, after that, I rather they wear their masks, call it silly, but, umm, I like the idea of my student divers being able to see the cool things that can be found at depth. Am I pomp? Maybe! Am I an idiot? Hmm, my ex wife often thinks so.

The rec diving industry is regimented to a point, or at least it's supposed to be. Alas, true enough, it is what it is. And yes, it's supposed to be fun, and, students are required to demonstrate proficiency in the basics (The part I call WORK) before we go "touring" (The part I call FUN). Since priorities are important to me, it's WORK first, then FUN.

You said, you feel you should have taught him yourself, now that's not too bad of an idea. Perhaps you should become an instructor? While ITC is kind of a pain, there is an element of fun to it, after which, when you're teaching, there's fun in that as well. I don't just teach "classes", I also teach friends and family (Good hook for me, as I gain dive buddies in this manner) in private classes. You have some axes to grind with the industry, there's a good place to start, grind them, certainly, but do so where it will actually do something.

I have two teen aged sons I am awaiting for them to become cerious enough about scuba to where I will hear the words "Dad, teach me how to dive". (At present time, they are interested in moto-cross racing) There's the satisfaction that I will know what they will know how to do as divers, after all, I'll be their instructor. How cool is THAT?

Actually I was on the boat when it happened. I voiced my concern but to not embarass the idiot I refrained from my usual command of the Naval language. I hear your words. Still will never be in that situation again.

 

[NAM001]

No way Sean:

C'mon guys, some people just wanna dive once a year in the tropics. So what if they suck at diving? They've been taught the basics, the rest is up to them. If they die, so be it. It was their choice, and the odds of them taking you down are truly NILL. It was their fault, not the instructors, or their respective agencies.

It's faulty to expect everybody to be a Michael Kane, and they shouldn't have to be to have fun.

deep scuba you have a point. for those of us who live in fair weather we see things diferently than those from denver who get out once a year. for those,,, they use tour groups and dive charters who look after them at a hundred bucks for a 2 tank dive. as far as the fair weather inhabitants the cost is too high to do regularly. those who take the course to get an "air card" will take away from the class just that.... are in the catagorie of people you cant save from themselves. how does an instructor gage a students training intent prior to grad????? that gors for those who have acccess to a compressor in lue of a c-card. 600.00 on e-bay. and the copressor can get your money back doing fills unlike a c-card. those who intend to cut the system short will.

KWS

 

[MikeFerrara]

SEALS have to be neutral with the LAR5. They use a Secumar vest which is not a bouyancy compensator but a life jacket. They have to be perfect with what they carry. Now you slap on a limpet you are negative. If you compensate for the mine weight then when it is placed you are positive and also compromised on the surface when you do a uncontrollable ascent. What you saw on TV doesn't represent a fraction of military diving. Visability has nothing to do with mission success. It is a factor but diving where the vis is usually zero is the norm. It is a totally different diving technique. What makes all Navy divers unique is that they can all adapt to any and all situations. Your "class" would be easyday.

An easy day as far as phisiacal pain maybe but from what little I've seen their technique would be pushed to the limits and beyond. Easy...bet me. LOL

I understand that vis has little to do with mission sccess. That's what PSD's complain about but they usually cause the zero vis LOL

All I'm saying is that they don't appear to be trained in what is important for us. I only saw a TV show but it wasn't anything that would impress a diver.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, you are never going to convince me and I will never convince you. So I will just stop trying (and posting). I wish you luck in your quest to take PADI down and rebuild a true diving program that can train 100,000s of divers safely and effectively.

I don't care to take down PADI or train hundreds of thousands of divers. I only try to raise the awareness of the few who are interested.

Why is it that so many who discuss this set the number of people who must dive as a constant? I only have to train those who are interested in that training. The number of divers I train will go down before the standards go down. If the goal is to fill the resorts or sell tons of aqualung regs that's a problem. I aim to do neither.

 

[NAM001]

I don't care to take down PADI or train hundreds of thousands of divers. I only try to raise the awareness of the few who are interested.

Why is it that so many who discuss this set the number of people who must dive as a constant? I only have to train those who are interested in that training. The number of divers I train will go down before the standards go down. If the goal is to fill the resorts or sell tons of aqualung regs that's a problem. I aim to do neither.

i dont think taking down padi is the answer either. every area has different items that are reinforcement worthy, up north cold water skills ect. i dont think you need to feild strip a regulator but you do need to be able to or clean your gear. when i did te ymca course in 68 or 69 there was no emphasis on tables for decon. heck we had shallow water and single 72 cf tanks. you just cant get into a decon situation with those constraints 2-3 times a day. he taught for the environment that was going to be available to us. he also told us that the skils we learned were not be adaquate for doubles and deep water diving. he was right 50' 15 minute bottom time no problem and used the tables to show what type of depth time combo's were needed to get us into trouble. the time was shifted to things such as the 40' suit squeeze and ballasting issues. we were wearing 1/4 and 3/8" suits in those days. we didnt have bc's in those days. times have changed and so has the training needs. one thing that is constant one course does not fit all but every comment gives me one more thing to think about when i leave familiar territory.

KWS

 

[hantzu701]

I don't care to take down PADI or train hundreds of thousands of divers. I only try to raise the awareness of the few who are interested.

Why is it that so many who discuss this set the number of people who must dive as a constant? I only have to train those who are interested in that training. The number of divers I train will go down before the standards go down. If the goal is to fill the resorts or sell tons of aqualung regs that's a problem. I aim to do neither.

Wilst I understand that PADI is only partially responsible for the minimum training that goes on, I feel that PADI does bear the responsibility to churning out hundreds of OW divers who would be better benefited by more and better training.

I don't think this is an isolated feeling. On any given weekend at a local quarry, there are hordes of OW students churning away the vis and making needless mistakes such getting wet without a simple equipment check or learning BASIC buddy skills - nevermind the simple skills such as dive site evaluation or even air management.

I simply do not see how a student can learn good skills when there are over 20 students in a class with only one instructor, or when the skills presented are practiced only once or twice under "real" ow conditions. I understand that PADI has a post cert survey as a quality check - but, I don't feel that it goes far enough.

Case in point. I especially liked the uw nav portion - in which ow divers are forced to uw nav a straight line from an uw platform. These new ow divers are often negative and on their knees. As soon as they start on their uw nav, they are often too heavy and sink into the muck. The resulting silt complicates the uw nav for them and the following students. What is worse is the diver who gets too positive and while focused on their compass for the uw nav shoots to the surface. DM/Instructors usually end up grabbing the wayward student by the fins to slow him/her down.

I think it was funny the first time I saw this. Sad with the second class, and frustrating on the third. IMHO, there was no reason why they couldn't have learned basic buoyancy @ the pool.

Yes, it all depends on the instructor, yadda, yadda, yadda... but in my limited experience - this is what is "normal". I'd watch the same things happen with other instructors from other LDSs.

 

[divemed06]

Wilst I understand that PADI is only partially responsible for the minimum training that goes on, I feel that PADI does bear the responsibility to churning out hundreds of OW divers who would be better benefited by more and better training.

I don't think this is an isolated feeling. On any given weekend at a local quarry, there are hordes of OW students churning away the vis and making needless mistakes such getting wet without a simple equipment check or learning BASIC buddy skills - nevermind the simple skills such as dive site evaluation or even air management.

I simply do not see how a student can learn good skills when there are over 20 students in a class with only one instructor, or when the skills presented are practiced only once or twice under "real" ow conditions. I understand that PADI has a post cert survey as a quality check - but, I don't feel that it goes far enough.

Case in point. I especially liked the uw nav portion - in which ow divers are forced to uw nav a straight line from an uw platform. These new ow divers are often negative and on their knees. As soon as they start on their uw nav, they are often too heavy and sink into the muck. The resulting silt complicates the uw nav for them and the following students. What is worse is the diver who gets too positive and while focused on their compass for the uw nav shoots to the surface. DM/Instructors usually end up grabbing the wayward student by the fins to slow him/her down.

I think it was funny the first time I saw this. Sad with the second class, and frustrating on the third. IMHO, there was no reason why they couldn't have learned basic buoyancy @ the pool.

Yes, it all depends on the instructor, yadda, yadda, yadda... but in my limited experience - this is what is "normal". I'd watch the same things happen with other instructors from other LDSs.

Not to beat this thing to death but...PADI represents what...60% of all certifications...that means that... combine all the other agencies and we have the other 40%...OK. So let's say that out of 100 divers certified, 60 are from PADI, 20 from NAUI, 5 from SSI etc. .etc.. Let's say that out of the 60 PADI divers, 10 really "SUCK" and should not get their c-cards. Fair to say that from the 20 students in the NAUI class, maybe 2 or 3 will really "SUCK". You'll obviously see more PADI divers who "SUCK" than any of the other agency...does that mean PADI's program is worse than the others, of course not...it's all proportional. That being said, next time we see a really bad diver, instead of asking them what certifiying agency they trained under, why don't we ask them how we can help them improve!

 

[Liveandletdive]

Not to beat this thing to death but...PADI represents what...60% of all certifications...that means that... combine all the other agencies and we have the other 40%...OK. So let's say that out of 100 divers certified, 60 are from PADI, 20 from NAUI, 5 from SSI etc. .etc.. Let's say that out of the 60 PADI divers, 10 really "SUCK" and should not get their c-cards. Fair to say that from the 20 students in the NAUI class, maybe 2 or 3 will really "SUCK". You'll obviously see more PADI divers who "SUCK" than any of the other agency...does that mean PADI's program is worse than the others, of course not...it's all proportional. That being said, next time we see a really bad diver, instead of asking them what certifiying agency they trained under, why don't we ask them how we can help them improve!

Hear hear!! Now this is a possible SOLUTION to a problem, not just senseless crying!

 

[hantzu701]

That being said, next time we see a really bad diver, instead of asking them what certifiying agency they trained under, why don't we ask them how we can help them improve!

'cause at my local dive site, I would guess that 100% of the OW certs are PADI... AND they all do the same thing - churn out ow certs as quickly as they can. Whist we can point fingers to the students, the LDS, the instructors, etc., IMHO, it is the FAILURE of leadership from PADI that permits this crap to go on.

 

[MikeFerrara]

'cause at my local dive site, I would guess that 100% of the OW certs are PADI... AND they all do the same thing - churn out ow certs as quickly as they can. Whist we can point fingers to the students, the LDS, the instructors, etc., IMHO, it is the FAILURE of leadership from PADI that permits this crap to go on.

I agree. While PADI doesn't certify all the divers. They have been leaders in the industry from the early days and they have had a large part in setting the pace.

The general business model of the typical LDS is I believe their design to a large extent. The fact that PADI cofounder was also VP of the biggest equipment manufacturer and the way the dive industry works is no accident. Casses are for selling equipment.

The model has been honed to crank out new instructors as fast as it does OW students. None of them know what they don't know.

Not long ago I saw a class that was realy having a hard time. Some were shooting to the surface and other falling into the bottom. You couldn't see anything at all in the areas where this class had been. I had a chance to talk to one of the divemasters. I made mention of trim and balance and getting students horizontal to keep their feet out of the bottom. This dive master had no idea what I was talking about and asked where you would put weight other than the weight pouches.

The blind leading the blind, plain and simple. You just can't teach what you don't know.