DM insurance - double indemnity?

[TMHeimer]

Here's a question I should know the answer to: I know if I had been part of a lawsuit when I was DMing that PADI would defend me IF I followed standards and local protocol. Suppose I didn't and was at fault. Is that when the DM insurance covers you? Another hypothetical question: After you "retire", how many years must go by before a former student could no longer sue you? Ie. "7 years ago this DM at the OW course said to do this. I did that yesterday and got DCS".

 

[Wookie]

Most civil litigation must be filed in the US within 3 years of the loss. Your insurance protects you against your negligence, but your carrier may choose not to cover your gross negligence. What's the difference? As a captain and boat owner, if you slip and fall down my ladder and break your leg, I am negligent for providing a slippery ladder. If I grease the ladder, I am grossly negligent, as any damn fool knows a greased ladder is slippery. Your policy limitations state this, btw. If you look at the exclusions, if you violate standards (lose student control) your underwriter may deny coverage.

 

[TMHeimer]

Thanks Wookie. "If you violate standards....may deny coverage." Yeah, sounds like any insurance company. Of course, if you don't violate them PADI will defend you.
I see what you mean about negligence vs. gross negligence. I imagine there are areas more grey than ladder vs. greased ladder and would guess the insurance co. would lean toward "gross" if there's doubt. But I tend to be jaded on this like many others. Am just glad I did my 4 years of DMing with no incidents--glad to know I supported the ins. company.

 

[MikadoWu]

1) My club requires trip leaders to be certified pros (who have insurance). The club needs to offer my trips each year as a way of offering more benefits to the members. Becoming a DM in order to help with that is one way I am stepping up to help the club.

Silly question here, but why is the Club Not paying for your insurance? They are the ones Requiring the Certification. I am guessing that they are large enough, and probably collecting membership dues. I remember long ago as a kid, my father being part of a club that paid his insurance. I been looking to start a club in my area, and was thinking trying to work with a Insurance company, that would let us do this.

 

[tursiops]

Not only would I get the DM cert and my own insurance, I would also form a personal LLC (costs about $100 in VA through LegalZoom) and do my trip planning and running as the LLC. One more level of protection, and realistically you are more likely to have problems as a trip leader that are NOT related to diving but rather just from someone who did not like the arrangements you made, and wants to sue you for having ruined their trip.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Not only would I get the DM cert and my own insurance, I would also form a personal LLC (costs about $100 in VA through LegalZoom) and do my trip planning and running as the LLC. One more level of protection, and realistically you are more likely to have problems as a trip leader that are NOT related to diving but rather just from someone who did not like the arrangements you made, and wants to sue you for having ruined their trip.

How is an LLC going to shield a trip organizer from liability for negligence, which is what I assume is the concern here? An LLC might be useful if the LLC is going to sign contracts with a dive charter or something like that, but it's not going to have any effect on a DM's liability for negligence.

 

[stuartv]

Silly question here, but why is the Club Not paying for your insurance? They are the ones Requiring the Certification. I am guessing that they are large enough, and probably collecting membership dues. I remember long ago as a kid, my father being part of a club that paid his insurance. I been looking to start a club in my area, and was thinking trying to work with a Insurance company, that would let us do this.

I have said "club", but it's really two clubs that I am part of and want to run trips for both. One club is small. That is the one that requires trip leaders to be a pro. It does not make enough in dues to pay the insurance for all the club's pros. That club is a non-profit (501(c)(3)). All the current pros in the club are covered by the insurance of the shop we've been running trips through. To my knowledge, none of them pay for any insurance of their own. I think I will get my own insurance, but I certainly have no chance of having the club pay for it.

The other club is huge, but does not collect dues or, currently, have any income. The club has new leadership, of which I am part, and we hope to change that, but it's a process.

Not only would I get the DM cert and my own insurance, I would also form a personal LLC (costs about $100 in VA through LegalZoom) and do my trip planning and running as the LLC. One more level of protection, and realistically you are more likely to have problems as a trip leader that are NOT related to diving but rather just from someone who did not like the arrangements you made, and wants to sue you for having ruined their trip.

I have thought about incorporating or getting a business license as a sole proprietorship or something like that. Partly for liability reasons and partly to support my HOPE that I can start deducting dive-related expenses. I have more research to do on that, which I have been deferring until I get my pro cert and can access the Pro subforum to ask relevant questions.

How is an LLC going to shield a trip organizer from liability for negligence, which is what I assume is the concern here? An LLC might be useful if the LLC is going to sign contracts with a dive charter or something like that, but it's not going to have any effect on a DM's liability for negligence.

I am also not sure that being an LLC would add much protection when it's an LLC with 1 shareholder, who is also the sole employee. But, the requirements to "pierce the corporate veil" and go after my personal assets MAY be SOME additional protection. I'm not a lawyer, but I may seek a consultation with one...

 

[stuartv]

you are more likely to have problems as a trip leader that are NOT related to diving but rather just from someone who did not like the arrangements you made, and wants to sue you for having ruined their trip.

ps. It's like you know me.... LOL

 

[Lorenzoid]

I am also not sure that being an LLC would add much protection when it's an LLC with 1 shareholder, who is also the sole employee. But, the requirements to "pierce the corporate veil" and go after my personal assets MAY be SOME additional protection. I'm not a lawyer, but I may seek a consultation with one...

If it's you who is personally accused of being negligent, it doesn't make any difference that you are working for an LLC, corporation, or whatever. If this were a big company and not just you, the LLC might pay your legal bills or insure you, but that's about it. There are good reasons to have an LLC, but avoiding personal exposure for negligence is not one of them.

 

[tursiops]

If it's you who is personally accused of being negligent, it doesn't make any difference that you are working for an LLC, corporation, or whatever. If this were a big company and not just you, the LLC might pay your legal bills or insure you, but that's about it. There are good reasons to have an LLC, but avoiding personal exposure for negligence is not one of them.

I never mentioned negligence; that is something you brought up.