DM insurance - double indemnity?

[Edward3c]

I'm also a club diver, but in the U.K. There are a number of things you need to research for you area:
* what is the legal definition of a members club, and therefore your role.
* offering travel packages to the Public could make you a travel agent, it does in the U.K. Only exemption is if the package is to club members.
* be clear in what your 'buying' from the boat operator. Again in the U.K. Charters are only the water taxi to/from th dive site. Their responsibility is putting divers in and recovering them safely, everything else is the organisers responsibility.
* insurance. Each country has its own peculiarities, but generally if an activity is covered by two or more policies the companies will argue over their liability rather than defend you.

You might find these two BSAC Manual useful - available to non-BSAC members:
* Dive Leading Manual, here.
* Expedition Manual, here.

 

[sheeper]

If you are leading ANYTHING not in conjunction with the shop then you need your own insurance. period.
if you are diving on your own and something happens and you help, or fail to help, you still need your own insurance.

I am insured thru several policies that cover my activities thru my shop as well as my independent activities.

 

[bmorescuba]

It is both legal and a very good idea to have your own personal liability DM insurance as well as be on the shop's policy. The LDS I work with - not everyone does this, but many do, even if they're not leading trips outside the shop.

 

[luscioman]

For a variety of reasons you should still get your own insurance and the owner is incorrect. I myself am on a shops and charters insurance and the Capt suggested that i get my own as well. Which of course I did.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Thanks, all.

I've been dealing with these guys at this shop for 2 1/2 years. The owner told me that the insurance they carry is better than what I could get on my own and very expensive. And knowing him as I do, I am inclined to believe that is a reasonably accurate statement. I'm not worried about them losing their insurance or booting me off it in the middle of a trip. So, if I can be on their insurance and also carry my own, that is definitely what I would want to do.

I really just wanted to make sure I CAN be on both. It would be nice for me if they do offer to have me as a DM for the shop. That would mean having their insurance cover me as my first line of defense, plus other perks like free VIPs, hydros, and air fills. But, if I couldn't have their insurance plus my own, then it would stick me with a tough decision.

Find out carrier they are using. There are only 3 right now that do this full time as far as I know. There are some smaller ones trying to make inroads but Witherspoon and First Dive are the ones insuring for SDI/TDI. Any insurance they can get, you can get as a DM. The difference is going to be whether it is a 1,2, or 3 million dollar policy.
V&B is insuring PADI and DAN has coverage for NAUI Instructors.

 

[Rred]

If you took out two policies, with different insurers, and you didn't tell either one about the other, then you put in two claims for one incident, trying to make each company pay the entire sum so that you wound up getting paid twice? That would be double indemnity, and usually an illegal fraud.

The dive shop owner may just be confusing the OP's request with something he saw on Columbo re-runs.

For all kinds of insurance, it is normal and acceptable that there is a "primary" and a "secondary" or that one policy covers certain circumstances but not others. If you are on Medicare and have a car accident, guess what? Medicare will not cover your hospital bills, they'll tell you to go to your CAR INSURANCE carrier. Because they exclude car accidents.

There's personal liability, and professional/business liability. When you are working for the shop, you're an employee and their policy covers you. And, just as with Worker's Comp, when you're not "working" you are not covered. So you buy personal coverage for everything outside of work.

Any competent broker or agent should have no problem getting the second policy. The main thing is, the OP needs to make Real Damn Sure that any activity he is involved in, is clearly and unarguably "personal" or "shop". That's the kind of gray area that lawyers love to get into battles over.

You're running a personal trip...but one of your club members asked you to pick up a couple of rental tanks from the shop for him. Oh, so now it is shop business? Or personal? Your only *safe* path is to have absolute and total firewalling on question. If it is "personal", the shop needs to be keep totally out of the loop. If someone says "Well, I went with him because he's a divemaster with XYZ Shop..." damfino, a good lawyer might still convince a jury that's business related.

 

[boulderjohn]

I always had my own insurance while working with a shop for the same sorts of reasons you describe. It cost me a little more, but I felt safer. There is nothing illiegal about it. I listed the shop as an additional insured, and I gave them a copy of the paperwork.

Find out carrier they are using. There are only 3 right now that do this full time as far as I know. There are some smaller ones trying to make inroads but Witherspoon and First Dive are the ones insuring for SDI/TDI. Any insurance they can get, you can get as a DM. The difference is going to be whether it is a 1,2, or 3 million dollar policy.
V&B is insuring PADI and DAN has coverage for NAUI Instructors.

I'm pretty sure any of those companies can insure any instructor for any agency. When I was teaching for TDI, I was covered for that by V&B, which I also had for PADI. Lots of instructors teach for multiple agencies like that, and they do not need a separate insurance for each.

 

[SOFDiver]

I think it is a mistake to become a DM just to guide dives for your dive club. As a dive professional you assume a great deal of personal responsibility/liability. You could organize dive trips for your club without being a DM, and let the dive operators eat the professional responsibility/liability. As to insurance issues, I have been through this situation. First there are a limited number of concerns that are still writing professional liability policies for dive professionals. That being said none of them will allow the same person to be covered under two policies with their firm, and none to my knowledge will cover you if you are already covered for the same risks with another firm. If you are not going to work as a DM for compensation, you would be better off working to becoming a Master Diver, same level of expertise without liability of becoming a dive professional and all that that entails. As with any advice you get on SB, jut one persons opinion.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I think it is a mistake to become a DM just to guide dives for your dive club. As a dive professional you assume a great deal of personal responsibility/liability. You could organize dive trips for your club without being a DM, and let the dive operators eat the professional responsibility/liability. . . .

But is it really practical to organize a club trip, be on the boat leading your group, and yet avoid being characterized (by a lawyer if something goes wrong) as a de facto divemaster? If it's not practical to avoid being divemaster-like, and if it's not possible to insure oneself against liability for being divemaster-like unless one is a certified divemaster, then it seems like one must become a certified divemaster to lead club trips like this.

 

[boulderjohn]

But is it really practical to organize a club trip, be on the boat leading your group, and yet avoid being characterized (by a lawyer if something goes wrong) as a de facto divemaster? If it's not practical to avoid being divemaster-like, and if it's not possible to insure oneself against liability for being divemaster-like unless one is a certified divemaster, then it seems like one must become a certified divemaster to lead club trips like this.

Check out the case of drifting Dan Cargill, the immensely important case of a few years ago. A dive club chartered a dive boat for a 3-tank dive. The club had two DMs as members who set up the trip and who called the roll for each dive. Calling the roll is the responsibility of the captain and crew, but the club dms did it anyway. After the first dive, they missed the fact that Dan Cargill had not yet returned, and they went off and completed the next two dives while Dan drifted in the water. He was picked up by another boat, and he won millions in the subsequent lawsuit, with the two DMs the primary focus of that suit.