Diving Education Today

[Slonda828]

I was with the US Army 101st Airborne and 82nd Airborne from 1984 and 1992.

I don't know about you but when I was playing paddycake with the PDF during Just Cause, we assaulted a machine gun nest or two.

Yeah, yeah, the hanging upside down shooting thing is hyperbolic (unless you're with the Delta Force), but the point was that it's ridiculous to attempt to equate or compare civilian hobbies (be they scuba or shooting) to military or commercial/professional trainings.

Then why needlessly exaggerate things? Thanks for serving, and for any past mustard spots. I'm not trying to jump to DCBC's defense (he is more than capable himself) but he is not comparing regular diving to being in the military. He is merely stating that more training makes safer divers based upon his diving experience (which is longer than I have been alive). The real point of debate is how much training is adequate.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I guess it's an occupational hazard for me to want to be prepared for the worst.

There's nothing wrong with that attitude in general. But when that attitude goes from what you are personally willing to commit to from the perspective of preparedness to what you wish to mandate for others, then it's fair game to examine the cost-benefit of such choices for a population as a whole.

I have dove with divers who have ran out of air at depth (buddied-up at a resort with another Instructor on a deep dive). At another time I've caught a malfunction in my octopus that may have been missed by some divers (slight hole in the diaphragm).

The first is more common than it should be. Though honestly, I always know what both my and my buddy's air supply is. Strangers diving with me have been relatively annoyed by my insisting to know their air whenever I look at my own. But that is something I put down as their problem .

The second is something that would cause me to call a dive right away. One of my "be prepared" rituals is to breath from both regs at depth. If my gear doesn't work right, it's my responsibility to call the dive.

If both these things happened on the same dive (which is conceivable) and my buddy didn't know how to buddy breath, one of us (perhaps both) would die.

Conceivable but not likely. Over the course of how many of your dives has this malfunction appeared once? Thousands? Of all the other divers around who have thousands of more dives, how many times have they seen a regulator fail closed? Sure, it happens, but it is increadibly unlikely to have it happen. And for a buddy running out of air - in my book that is the fault of both buddies.

If they can't remember how to be responsible for checking air, you expect them to be responsible for keeping buddy breathing skills up to date and being able to perform those skills under stress without panic?

I don't follow that logic.

I've taught my sons, why should a stranger be any different.

I know how to build my own computer and it's something I've taught my kids. It's a useful skill. But when someone asks me to show them how to use their computer it's something I leave out. It's just not relevant.

 

[Gerbs]

The difference in training (talking about diving) is that before diving took off, there were sports divers. Now there are Recreational divers.

This is cause for much debate in Germany, where there are large populations of both.

Here, sports divers are usually from dive clubs, tend to dive more, do so independently, learn on their own from mentors, books and further certification. Diving throughout the year, they skill and understanding is matched to their challenging dives. They will have a different risk assessment for a given dive and dive site ("I'm at the end of my NDL, my computer is conservative, I know my gas and consumption. I can go into deco up to X minutes or until my pressure drops to Y so I can still do the deco with reserves. If it goes wrong I can either blow and use O2 from my surface support bottle, breathe from someone's secondary (my two buddies are on similar profiles, both have air, both are experienced), or, if push comes to shove, buddy breathe"). These divers seek out higher standards, and, for the dives they do, these higher standards are a requirement. Training is by enthusiasts for enthusiasts, usually free or beer-money. 10-15 dives for OWD-equivalent is not unheard of. This is after pool training.

Recreational divers, on the other hand, tend to dive less frequently, and tend to dive less frequently. They tend to dive in organised groups, where someone else takes care of things.
Most do not desire higher training, and just want to see the sites. The diver training they receive is usually adequate for the diving they do. Modern commercial diver education is geared for this, as the numbers are greater and more service can be sold. The assessment to the same situation our sports divers would be different ("oooh... nearly through half my gas and at the end of my NDL. Glad the guide is going up to the shallower parts! If anything goes wrong, I can always rush to the surface and all is well!").

Technical divers have an stronger overlap with sports divers but tend to dive in a more regimented way. Deco is neither something that happens, nor an emergency, but something planned meticulously. Training was sought for what is done, and plans were made. Sports reaches a deep into technical territory, also dealing with overheads, gas management, depth, and additional equipment. The difference is that often procedures sometimes replace experience. A sports diver with 1500 dives will approach the same 40m/133' 20 minute dive differently than a technical diver with 300 dives, using experience to safely dive within their capabilities, cutting into margins and understanding (mostly, though sometimes not) what they are doing. Our fictional technical diver will plan and execute that plan safely, with large margins and redundancy. Both have a very good chance of completing this dive safely. The sports diver will make the hair on the neck of the technical diver stand on end.

Boundaries between rec and tec is easy to define - overhead environment. Sports diving covers both, with tec then going further than sports diving can. Sometimes sports divers tend to be less amenable to the more regimented technical diving, and tech divers who came from the recreational side don't appreciate how much value experience can be.

When recreational divers think they are spots divers without realising that it's not all instant gratification, then it usually doesn't end well.

Rec divers see Sports divers and techies as dangerous dare-devils, doing stuff they consider dangerous.
Sports dives see rec divers as needing to grow up and do their own diving, and think that the tec guys go overboard with equipment and procedures in some cases.
Techies see rec divers as a first stage to diving, and could they please stay where they are or get training? Sports divers are seen with respect for their skill, not their risk management.



Just my observations from watching the various characters I dive with or on the German diving boards.

Gerbs

(Started rec, then joined a club, edging slowly towards the dark side and equipment painted black)

 

[Slonda828]

It is a needless complication. It's not bad for any driver to know how to rebuild an engine or how to push start a standard transmission vehicle, but such information doesn't have any real business in a basic driver's education program precisely because superfluous information complicating a course for no real return not only increases cost to the customer but also makes it harder for the student to focus on learning what is really important.

I'm not saying it has no value for more advanced divers. It is a great way to learn and master breath control, and to help with improving problem solving between regular buddies -- the infamous PADI DM gear exchange challenge being a good example of that. But ultimately it is an anachronistic skill for modern recreational divers and it being missing from the curriculum is precisely the right choice for the same reason that one doesn't teach people how to tune fuel mix when they are learning to drive anymore.

Dude, it takes about ten minutes to show most people how to buddy breathe. I showed my girlfriend how to do it one day when we were bored, it ain't nuke-ular rocket surgery. A needless complication? We aren't training people to memorize dive tables here, we are teaching them another survival skill. What is knowing how to tread water without buoyant gear then, another useless complication? How about manually inflating your BC? Where does your thought process in this regard end? What would your course contain? Half of the courses now spend time selling people dive computers and fancy crap when if they cut that stuff out they could train a reasonable competent diver and include all the skills.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I agree with him in general on the lack of training depth. But I take exception to the comparison between recreational diving (to include tech diving) and military/commercial venues.

One doesn't need to know how to do textual redaction in order to enjoy a good book. That doesn't mean that elementary school reading courses lack depth. Rather the depth that is necessary to achieve the goals of the course do not require that much depth.

I am not ever going to argue that OW courses are perfect. Nor will I make some ludicrous claim that no one will ever need additional training. But OW is pretty much equivalent to elementary school. It provides for basic literacy. Some kids will go on to get PhD's in literature. Others will never read another book in their lives. The majority will be someplace in the middle -- obtaining the formal and informal training they need to be functional at the level of literary awareness and knowledge that suits the kind of reading they enjoy doing.

 

[dadediver]

I'm sorry, but where do you get your information? I was in the military for 10 years, and VERY little of what you just said is remotely true (in the United States Military anyway). Military divers are not required to ruck 30 miles as part of their training in Panama City. Even a mortarman or a M-240B gunner typically does not carry a 100 plus pound ruck for over 30 miles. I do not believe that you have ever been in the military, but maybe you have read some articles on the internet or some books? FYI, people do not assault machine gun nests anymore (this isn't 'the big one'), and even Rangers are not trained to shoot whilst hanging upside down from a rappel or fast rope, they are trained to reach the ground safely in an expeditious manner and then engage targets with accurate and controlled fires. You sound like a sea lawyer, either that or you hang out with delta guys all day.

Urban Dictionary: sea lawyer

Thank you for capitalizing Ranger. However, when I was in we did do twenty mile forced marches in full gear. In fact when I was with the 25th ID in Hawaii, every month the whole division did a mandatory 15 mile combat hump up Kolee Kolee pass and back, this included the 2 star commanding general in full combat gear also. I got to carry the prick, so I had about 100 pounds with the rest of my gear. This was a light infantry unit, not even a SOG unit. And the 11C guys did in fact hump 100 pounds when I was in. They even carried thier base plates. And in Air Assualt school, we did do the Aussie rappells while firing our M-4's (upside down rappell). But then again, things change. I got out in 1989, got recalled in 1990, out again and went to the sand box as a PMC for a year in 2001.

RLTW........

 

[dadediver]

Then why needlessly exaggerate things? I'm not trying to jump to DCBC's defense (he is more than capable himself) but he is not comparing regular diving to being in the military. He is merely stating that more training makes safer divers based upon his diving experience (which is longer than I have been alive). The real point of debate is how much training is adequate.

Bingo..this is my point. where is too much vs not enough. Everyone has different learning curves and comfort levels.

 

[Slonda828]

Thank you for capitalizing Ranger. However, when I was in we did do twenty mile forced marches in full gear. In fact when I was with the 25th ID in Hawaii, every month the whole division did a mandatory 15 mile combat hump up Kolee Kolee pass and back, this included the 2 star commanding general in full combat gear also. I got to carry the prick, so I had about 100 pounds with the rest of my gear. This was a light infantry unit, not even a SOG unit. And the 11C guys did in fact hump 100 pounds when I was in. They even carried thier base plates. And in Air Assualt school, we did do the Aussie rappells while firing our M-4's (upside down rappell). But then again, things change. I got out in 1989, got recalled in 1990, out again and went to the sand box as a PMC for a year in 2001.

RLTW........

Anytime Dade Still, you have to admit that you never once saw a working diver walking around with a 100 pound pack. That's not really their lane. I was making the Army allusion for a comparison. I mean, SOF has CDQC qualified guys, but they are a pretty far cry from a standard military diver. I think my point is that while dive school is crazy compared to recreational dive training, the tenets of skills, training, safety, and the emphasis on problem solving and physical fitness should not be worlds apart. I feel like a basic recreational diver should be able to problem solve and at least swim a few hundred yards unassisted. Surely that is not unrealistic?

 

[Kingpatzer]

Dude, it takes about ten minutes to show most people how to buddy breathe. I showed my girlfriend how to do it one day when we were bored, it ain't nuke-ular rocket surgery.

Was your girlfriend a diver at the time? Most students I've seen are pretty well task loaded enough without adding requirements for certification that they will never realistically be expected to use.

Students aren't taught how to service regulators either. And like buddy breathing, there's nothing wrong with that. And it's far more likely that a dive student will one day need to have a reg re-built than they will need to know how to buddy breath.

A needles complication?

Yes, needless. Performance requirements for any short course should be minimalist. Teach and evaluate what is essential. And like it or not, scuba training is a short course format and will continue that way for the foreseen future. Even if it would be expanded to multiple weeks, it's still superfluous.

I would argue that being able to breath off of a scuba tank without a regulator is a skill that is far more likely to be useful in an emergency than buddy breathing. But no one seems to bring that up as something we should teach.

We aren't training people to memorize dive tables here

Right, we are teaching them the basics of diving in a way pretty well analogous to teaching someone the basics of driving. There are all kinds of driving skills that are not taught or tested in a basic driving course. They are still useful, but they aren't essential.

What is knowing how to tread water without buoyant gear then, another useless complication?

I personally think so.

How about manually inflating your BC?

I'm a big fan of air conservation, this is something I do all the time and don't see as useless. I don't see it as a survival skill. If I'm weighted properly, i can swim up my gear from depth anyway, so a power inflation failure is a non-issue as far as safety is concerned. Now, if I don't know how to weight myself properly . . .

What would your course contain?

I personally think the PADI course standards are pretty well sufficient. I'd lose any skill taught without some surface buoyancy -- tread water in a 3m shorty all you want, but the idea that it has to be without any flotation is kind of goofy in my mind.

I would like to see a greater emphasis on buoyancy control, and I'd like to see significant improvements in the area of continuing instructor evaluation and auditing. But in terms of what's taught I think it's not too far off the mark.

I'd lose a few things (fin pivots - see ya later!) but I really don't see much that needs added for OW divers.

 

[Slonda828]

Bingo..this is my point. where is too much vs not enough. Everyone has different learning curves and comfort levels.

And brother, I agree with you. I don't think asking someone to buddy breathe is crazy though. I have actually never found anyone besides instructors that are cramped for time and King Patzer who think buddy breathing is a "needless complication". I mean honestly, do we think the agencies removed it because it was dangerous or a hindrance or because it was yet another move to "make diving more accessible" by reducing the already LOW standards required to keep the pyramid scheme going.

Anyway gentlemen, I broke my new cardinal rule and participated in another train wreck. Please, by all means, continue.