Diving Education Today

[Slonda828]

The point was missed when in the very first post you attempted to compare civilian recreational dive training to military and commercial dive trainings.

I'm just trying to show you how ludicrous it is to even attempt to make such comparisons.

Part of military heightened diving standards is the task load that a military diver has to perform nowadays in war time. That's why military divers, Navy SEALs, Special Forces combat swimmers have to do 10-miles non-finned swims and 30-miles road marches with 100-lbs rucksack.

Tell me where in the civilian recreational dive world where I would have to do anything evenly remotely related to that?

So, yes, military diving standards are different AND more rigorous AND need to be improved with the time because the missions become more dangerous and hazardous. The enemies are wiser about SEALs'/Combat Swimmers' modus operandi, therefore these people have to devise different ways to get to the objectives and execute their missions.

A recreational diver doesn't face any different hazard nowadays than he did 40-years ago. If anything he faces less hazard because of improvement in equipment functionality.

I'm sorry, but where do you get your information? I was in the military for 10 years, and VERY little of what you just said is remotely true (in the United States Military anyway). Military divers are not required to ruck 30 miles as part of their training in Panama City. Even a mortarman or a M-240B gunner typically does not carry a 100 plus pound ruck for over 30 miles. I do not believe that you have ever been in the military, but maybe you have read some articles on the internet or some books? FYI, people do not assault machine gun nests anymore (this isn't 'the big one'), and even Rangers are not trained to shoot whilst hanging upside down from a rappel or fast rope, they are trained to reach the ground safely in an expeditious manner and then engage targets with accurate and controlled fires. You sound like a sea lawyer, either that or you hang out with delta guys all day.

Urban Dictionary: sea lawyer

 

[Kingpatzer]

Even things like Buddy Breathing are being discarded as unnecessary.

This is one of my favorite examples of things I don't get from the old guard crowd.

Sure, back in the day when no one had octo's this made a lot of sense.

Today, everyone has an octo. So the idea of buddy breathing is hard to justify.

With 2 people diving together there are 4 regulators. They are designed to fail open. If a regulator fails, there are still 4 regulators you can breath from between two people.

If a person runs out of air, there are still two regulators to breath from. There is still no need to buddy breath.

For buddy breathing to be necessary requires one buddy to run out of air at the same time that the other buddy's regulator decides to fail closed.

I don't know what the odds of that happening are, but I'm betting it's far less than the chances of the divers getting eaten by a lost white-tip on the way up while buddy breathing.

 

[Slonda828]

Duplicate post, please remove.

 

[Slonda828]

This is one of my favorite examples of things I don't get from the old guard crowd.

Sure, back in the day when no one had octo's this made a lot of sense.

Today, everyone has an octo. So the idea of buddy breathing is hard to justify.

With 2 people diving together there are 4 regulators. They are designed to fail open. If a regulator fails, there are still 4 regulators you can breath from between two people.

If a person runs out of air, there are still two regulators to breath from, and since OW divers are not certified to be diving with over-head obstructions and are depth limited without deco obligations, there is still no need to buddy breath.

For buddy breathing to be necessary requires one buddy to run out of air at the same time that the other buddy's regulator decides to fail closed.

I don't know what the odds of that happening are, but I'm betting it's far less than the chances of the divers getting eaten by a lost white-tip on the way up while buddy breathing.

I personally like buddy breathing because it removes all limitations of gear. If you dive vintage gear you should know how to buddy breathe. If you dive in any overhead (real or simulated) you should know how to buddy breathe. The WKPP guys (I am not sure if they were in the WKPP capacity when this happened or not) had a famous diving accident in which they had to buddy breathe to help save a diver's life (although unfortunately he died anyway). Most of the root training begins in open water, so buddy breathing is not really a bad addition to open water training. That way, a diver knows what it looks like. Maybe later if he or she has to do it during a dive, then they were already exposed to it in open water even if they have not mastered it. Also, one tank of air will last two divers longer if they buddy breathe than if they both use second stages off of one tank. I have tested this myself. It is not one of those things that is going to make the planet fall on you if you skip it, but it is a skill. It is nice to have several ways to attack something when the feces hits the rotary oscillator Interestingly, it is required at the professional level.

 

[DCBC]

I don't know what the odds of that happening are, but I'm betting it's far less than the chances of the divers getting eaten by a lost white-tip on the way up while buddy breathing.

I guess it's an occupational hazard for me to want to be prepared for the worst. I have dove with divers who have ran out of air at depth (buddied-up at a resort with another Instructor on a deep dive). At another time I've caught a malfunction in my octopus that may have been missed by some divers (slight hole in the diaphragm). If both these things happened on the same dive (which is conceivable) and my buddy didn't know how to buddy breath, one of us (perhaps both) would die. Perhaps it sounds unlikely, but things have happened to me underwater over the years that were freak accidents. For me I'd rather be prepared, but that's just my nature. I'll keep training my students to buddy-breath. As far as I'm concerned, it's worth the effort. I've taught my sons, why should a stranger be any different.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I personally like buddy breathing because it removes all limitations of gear. If you dive vintage gear you should know how to buddy breathe.

If you drive a model-T you need to know how to tune fuel mixture at the carburetor since you'll have to do it a lot. That doesn't make that skill necessary for driver's ed.

If you dive in any overhead (real or simulated) you should know how to buddy breathe.

Which isn't what OW divers are being trained to do. Should they want to do those things they need additional course work, and that point is heavily stressed during the training.

The WKPP guys . . .

Are as like OW divers as are Navy divers. Those are two different worlds and the only similarity is that both go under water. F1 drivers have a bit more training than the average 16 year old as well. The vast majority of which is entirely not applicable to the driving a kid out of driver's ed is qualified or expected to do.

Most of the root training begins in open water, so buddy breathing is not really a bad addition to open water training.

It is a needless complication. It's not bad for any driver to know how to rebuild an engine or how to push start a standard transmission vehicle, but such information doesn't have any real business in a basic driver's education program precisely because superfluous information complicating a course for no real return not only increases cost to the customer but also makes it harder for the student to focus on learning what is really important.

I'm not saying it has no value for more advanced divers. It is a great way to learn and master breath control, and to help with improving problem solving between regular buddies -- the infamous PADI DM gear exchange challenge being a good example of that. But ultimately it is an anachronistic skill for modern recreational divers and it being missing from the curriculum is precisely the right choice for the same reason that one doesn't teach people how to tune fuel mix when they are learning to drive anymore.

 

[dadediver]

If I was wanted to drive the same truck on the highway, yes.

Let's not lose perspective and get crazy. I think it's useful to compare apples to apples. The commercial and military diver "initial training" program for open-circuit air is similar to the LAC program (Welcome to L.A. County Scuba - Home of the Underwater Instructors Certification Course!). This is supplemented by additional training, again similar in scope to the LAC program (which maintains a 75 hour training program for an Advanced certification).

However, military, commercial diving IS different than that of a rec diver. Just as a CDL driver is different than that of a passenger car. Same concept, but different standards and expectations. I served 7 years in the military with 5 in a SOG unit. I attended airborne basic course (3 weeks) and the HALO course. I wasnt allowed to skydive when I got out for I didnt have a class A license. I had to go through the AFF program and complete my 25 jumps in order to jump by myself. The AFF course was 10 hours long. My HALO course was 15 days jumping at the same height as that of the AFF program. Granted the second week I had full gear on in my HALO class. My son is a current military diver and he isnt allowed to scuba dive here at the local quarries when he is home on leave unless he has a scuba certification card. He wasnt issued one from his military training, so he has to use his YMCA card that he had before serving in order to dive here locally.

Programs may seem the same, but are they? Its a subjective.

Obviously the commercial diver is expected to advance faster than a non-commercial student. The course is intense and the diver quickly builds underwater time.



I agree. That's why the military/commercial diver takes additional training beyond the initial program. Secondly, the safety equipment/procedures used by the m/c diver provides an additional safety margin that the recreational diver doesn't have. The rec diver has to be prepared to face an emergency alone.



Again I agree; that's why more training is required. Thanks for your comments.

What would be your idea of what the OW course training should be? I ask this, for I do vaule your input and training.

 

[fnfalman]

I'm sorry, but where do you get your information? I was in the military for 10 years, and VERY little of what you just said is remotely true (in the United States Military anyway). Military divers are not required to ruck 30 miles as part of their training in Panama City. Even a mortarman or a M-240B gunner typically does not carry a 100 plus pound ruck for over 30 miles. I do not believe that you have ever been in the military, but maybe you have read some articles on the internet or some books? FYI, people do not assault machine gun nests anymore (this isn't 'the big one'), and even Rangers are not trained to shoot whilst hanging upside down from a rappel or fast rope, they are trained to reach the ground safely in an expeditious manner and then engage targets with accurate and controlled fires. You sound like a sea lawyer, either that or you hang out with delta guys all day.

Urban Dictionary: sea lawyer

I was with the US Army 101st Airborne and 82nd Airborne from 1984 and 1992.

I don't know about you but when I was playing paddycake with the PDF during Just Cause, we assaulted a machine gun nest or two.

Yeah, yeah, the hanging upside down shooting thing is hyperbolic (unless you're with the Delta Force), but the point was that it's ridiculous to attempt to equate or compare civilian hobbies (be they scuba or shooting) to military or commercial/professional trainings.

 

[pdelannoy]

Hey DCBC,

I got your point. I am a relatively new diver (137 dives) and I have been disappointed with the degree of instruction I have had access to. I have chosen to read everything I can get my hands on and implement my own training to try and follow the path you described way back at the beginning of this thread. In fact, thats part of why I like diving is because there is so much to learn and so many challenges to look forward to. Thanks for your thread.

PD

 

[fnfalman]

Hey DCBC,

I got your point. I am a relatively new diver (137 dives) and I have been disappointed with the degree of instruction I have had access to. I have chosen to read everything I can get my hands on and implement my own training to try and follow the path you described way back at the beginning of this thread. In fact, thats part of why I like diving is because there is so much to learn and so many challenges to look forward to. Thanks for your thread.

PD

I agree with him in general on the lack of training depth. But I take exception to the comparison between recreational diving (to include tech diving) and military/commercial venues.