Diving and climbing

[almostDIR]

Again, I know nothing about mountain climbing. I hate heights. I don't even like ladders. Interested in learning...

I was originally very interested in mountain climbing but gave up the idea because it seemed to have too many uncontrollable risks. Diving seemed much safer alternative to me... not many rockfalls and avalanches there

To me the fear of heights is directly linked to the inability to control the risk of falling, not the actual distance to the ground. so would feel comfortable even if there was one kilometer fall underneath if having the proper gear and all the safety measures in place. On the other hand the fear comes back if there is a slippery angled surface I'm standing on and there is for example a 10ft fall at the end of it

 

[Lorenzoid]

I have been thinking whether there are analogies to diving since reading the stories about the increasing number of deaths on Everest, but I haven't been able to come up with anything interesting. The factors in the case of Everest seem to be complicity of the tourism-hungry Nepalese government, growing popularity of climbing as a sport, cheaper airfares, and more generally, growing affluence of the middle classes. Rebreathers, DPVs, trimix, etc., and the ability to dive all over the world are now within reach of many divers, yet we haven't really seen a rash of deaths in recent years, have we? It seems to me that, for an endeavor with the potential to kill you easily, the diving world actually regulates itself surprisingly well these days. For all the anecdotes we discuss here on SB, such at that "trust-me trimix dive," not that many involved serious injury or death. However, I suppose if we're considering the past, there were periods in which factors of the day combined to create a rash of deaths. Maybe we're about to see another such period?

 

[Bob DBF]

But my concern is this - does that consideration affect decisions about safety? If a CCR instructor is living in the third world and starving with a family to feed, should that be a consideration when deciding who to train? When to train them? When to advance? When to say no?

Of course it does, only it's more likely to be basic SCUBA training. @BurhanMuntasser has described these problems in Libya in more than one thread.

Let's face it, with a starving family to feed is a pretty clear cut choice, however it may just someone looking for a quick buck, knowing that there will be little or no repercussions from a bad outcome.


I'm waiting for them to build a tram, with a rotating bar at the top.


Bob

 

[tridacna]

Let’s limit diving the Andrea Doria to a one hour window in mid-winter each year. And encourage beginners to join. On air. That should thin the herd.

 

[doctormike]

Another difference is that Everest is a magnet for climbers and non-climbers who want that selfie. I mean, climbers know that there are other mountains that are harder to summit that Everest, but I'll bet that a lot of these wannabes wouldn't consider spending $70,000 to summit any other peak, and spend their time on FB explaining that "...no, really, this one is just as challenging as Everest. Maybe more!".

So those 11 deaths are notable because they happened on one site, which has revved up the climbing tourism business precisely because of that reason - the mountain's brand, it's name recognition.

Diving deaths with similar issues would be spread all over the world, so less of a notable concentration.

 

[rjack321]

I have been thinking whether there are analogies to diving since reading the stories about the increasing number of deaths on Everest, but I haven't been able to come up with anything interesting. The factors in the case of Everest seem to be complicity of the tourism-hungry Nepalese government, growing popularity of climbing as a sport, cheaper airfares, and more generally, growing affluence of the middle classes. Rebreathers, DPVs, trimix, etc., and the ability to dive all over the world are now within reach of many divers, yet we haven't really seen a rash of deaths in recent years, have we? It seems to me that, for an endeavor with the potential to kill you easily, the diving world actually regulates itself surprisingly well these days. For all the anecdotes we discuss here on SB, such at that "trust-me trimix dive," not that many involved serious injury or death. However, I suppose if we're considering the past, there were periods in which factors of the day combined to create a rash of deaths. Maybe we're about to see another such period?

I don't think so. Yes there are lots of new toys that can get you into trouble. You can get them minus any training - but it takes effort to buy your own compressor mix your own trimix or get a used CCR and dive it without any training at all. The quick self rush is hard to fulfill, especially underwater since you cant even take your regular cell phone there and post direct to Instagram

In first world countries shop liability limits what people can do/get away with. In third world countries where liability concerns are less or absent the infrastructure isn't there to just exchange money for trimix or CCRs.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Let’s limit diving the Andrea Doria to a one hour window in mid-winter each year. And encourage beginners to join. On air. That should thin the herd.

Speaking of the Doria, do you know if more people are diving it than in previous decades? If there were really an analogy, we would be seeing more boats than ever that are willing to take divers with thin experience to the Doria. Is there an increasing number of affluent, self-taking divers and boats willing to take their money?

Of course, the Doria really isn't "the Everest of diving" because even the best selfie on the Doria is no match for one on the summit of Everest. And most people who will read the diver's FB page will never have heard of the Andrea Doria, so it's less brag-worthy. I guess Everest is just a unique draw.

 

[rjack321]

Speaking of the Doria, do you know if more people are diving it than in previous decades? If there were really an analogy, we would be seeing more boats than ever that are willing to take divers with thin experience to the Doria. Is there an increasing number of affluent, self-taking divers and boats willing to take their money?

Actually there seem to be far fewer trips to the Doria. Running any kind of charter under USCG rules is not cheap at all and can be a challenge to turn a profit. Especially with a limited season like in NJ and cold dark water that has almost no destination appeal.

While I'm not in the NY/NJ area, we have lost quite a few charters in the Seattle area due to age (some of them were old fishing boats that were past the point of profitability) and replacing them with US made hulls as necessitated under the Jones Act is prohibitively expensive. So no new skippers are entering the (potentially) open market despite being one of the fastest growing urban areas in the country and plenty of divers. Although I suspect many local divers are only local briefly before they fly off to Hawaii and warmer places.

 

[doctormike]

I guess Everest is just a unique draw.

I think that's the important point, and difference between climbing and diving in this regard.

 

[rhwestfall]

The statement is 11 deaths in this "climbing season".... Do you realize it is 11 deaths in 10 days?