Diving and climbing

[doctormike]

A friend of mine posted this article on FB, generating a discussion about the ethics of rich, undertrained, underconditioned people buying a $70,000 selfie. About the complicity of the Nepalese government. About the involvement of the Sherpa communities, their politics, their financial pressures, and their potential exploitation. It's an interesting discussion. As an outsider to that world, I try not to have strong preconceived notions, but rather to listen and learn.

I think that most non-divers reading about high profile scuba cases feel confused: Wes Skiles, Rob Stewart, the deaths on the U-869 or the Andrea Doria, cave rescues, etc... It is probably hard to understand from outside the tribe why people take certain risks, when that is justifiable, when it isn't, and when it's greedy actors pushing people beyond appropriate boundaries.

Here's one sentence from the article that struck me: "This has been one of the deadliest climbing seasons on Everest, with at least 11 deaths. And at least some seem to have been avoidable."

I'm pretty sure that all of them were avoidable...

What do you think? Does this remind you of the Discover Scuba Diving tragedies? Of cramming advanced technical or rebreather training into shorter and shorter time frames? Of that trimix trust-me dive that was discussed here? Of the finances of dive pros in tropical locations being forced to race to the bottom in terms of safety and reimbursement?

How is it similar to diving and how is it different?

PS. Not sure if this is the right forum, if anyone has suggestions of where it would fit better feel free to say so. Was thinking accidents and incidents, but since it's not about a specific event, didn't think that made as much sense.

 

[rjack321]

Here's one sentence from the article that struck me: "This has been one of the deadliest climbing seasons on Everest, with at least 11 deaths. And at least some seem to have been avoidable."

I'm pretty sure that all of them were avoidable...

Define avoidable? By not climbing at all - sure they could all be avoided. Even if you made the training & experience bar crazy high you'd still have deaths on 8,000m peaks. Snow, weather, glaciers and physiology are not 100% predictable to the point of avoiding death. Honestly, in the grand scheme of things, 11 deaths (and counting) is minimal.

The race to the bottom is totally consumer driven. Ask anyone teaching in Hawaii, a place you'd expect tourists to have some funds to actually even get there. And the budget scuba course is very much alive. Anyone climbing Everest on the cheap and lying about their heart conditions gets what they paid for. The saddest part is for the families left behind - and the mountain covered in garbage and bodies.

 

[doctormike]

Define avoidable? By not climbing at all - sure they could all be avoided.

Yeah, that's what I was implying...

An unavoidable death is when you get hit by a meteor or when your genetics catches up with you. All scuba and diving deaths are avoidable, I just didn't like the way that the author made that arbitrary distinction.

 

[rjack321]

I do think the Nepalese government has a role to play here by setting a maximum "safe" number of permits. Saying the guides will work that out on the mountain is an abrogation of their responsibilities here. Off the top of my head I'd say 175-200 climbers max. The cost per permit can and should be allowed to rise (and fall) with the market conditions. The more people want to go, the higher the permit cost, which should in part help fund better efforts to get rid of the garbage.

 

[doctormike]

So...

Nepalese government = Training Agencies

Sherpas = Instructors

??

No idea, just spitballing...

 

[Storker]

What do you think?

That there's too much money in the world, and that there's too many people thinking they can buy a glorified selfie, showing that they've done something they really aren't competent to do.

"Every corpse on Everst once was a highly motivated person". You can buy the experience, but that doesnt mean that you were really competent. The picture of the file of people on the track towards Everest summit just proves that.

Over here, we struggle with the same phenomenon. Tourists decide to visit that cool place that everyone else is selfying from, and the rescue service is overloaded from having to rescue the morons when they encounter moderately bad conditions while not being prepared at all.

 

[Jcp2]

One of our favorite local restaurant in Michigan is a Himalayan restaurant run by a former Sherpa. He has 27 ascents to the peak, his wife almost as many (she’s not a Sherpa, as that is a family name). They got married on the peak, and gave that all up to run a low margin restaurant. His staff are mostly ethnically Nepalese who also consider this lifestyle preferable to serving climbers.

 

[thewalrus]

I've seen this up close and personal in diving. And it was my instructor that was pushing way to fast.

I had just started diving - did my OW through SDI / TDI through a company in Alberta that really marketed itself as the serious diver's shop. They did a lot of Tec stuff, deep water stuff, rebreather stuff. They also offered a fairly high quality and intensive training program for new divers. Which I liked.

But - after I got my OW - the pressure to advance and to take more training came on in a big way. Within 10 total dives (including OW!) he owner / instructor had me complete my deep training, night / nav, drysuit, and NITROX. And that was all fine. A little expensive, but it felt OK.

After that though - the pressure kept coming. Not even 15 dives into my hobby and he's pressuring me to register and take technical courses - decompression diving, trimix diving, rebreather diving. Even offered to help me get set up on a rebreather (he'd get me a discount!). And he tried to sell me this by appealing to my sense of self confidence - he knew I could do it. I was a natural. I was competent in the water. I could handle it. Instead, it freaked me out - because deep (ha!) down I knew I wasn't even remotely ready for that. I wanted to take fish identification... or search and recovery... or advanced buoyancy control...stuff like that.

Anyway - long and the short of was that I quit diving for a number of years and the shop went bankrupt (dude actually went to jail for stealing his grandmother's money - to the tune of a couple hundred grand).

Just started again with a far....FAR... better shop. Through PADI this time (though I don't judge SDI / TDI by my experience). With instructors and owners that actually put diver safety ahead of a sale. It's a revelation. And the only reason I've gotten back into diving after a number of years off.

Anyway - not sure the point of all of this - except to say that things like this happen, to my mind, because businesses and individuals sometimes need money, badly. And sometimes that means they're willing to hurt others - or put others at risk - in order to stay afloat. I don't think there's all that much differences between what my previous instructor did in relation to me (and other divers) and what he did to his grandmother. He was willing to hurt, or risk hurting, others because he needed a cash infusion. They were both acts of desperation, irresponsibility, and breaches in ethics and morality. Not to mention the law - at least in the latter case. I imagine that it's not all that different elsewhere, and in other circumstances, activities, hobbies and professions.

 

[tridacna]

Don’t underestimate the value of the work to the guides. I’ve done Kili twice (no comparison in terms of risk or cost) but the income brought in by the guides is an unbelievable boon to the local economies.

 

[doctormike]

Don’t underestimate the value of the work to the guides. I’ve done Kili twice (no comparison in terms of risk or cost) but the income brought in by the guides is an unbelievable boon to the local economies.

Right, clearly this is a huge issue, with foreign tourists bringing in vast sums of money.

But my concern is this - does that consideration affect decisions about safety? If a CCR instructor is living in the third world and starving with a family to feed, should that be a consideration when deciding who to train? When to train them? When to advance? When to say no?

Again, I know nothing about mountain climbing. I hate heights. I don't even like ladders. Interested in learning...