Dive shops and training: the disconnect with reality

[idocsteve]

What I HOPE is that you survive long enough to recognize your own stupidity ... and decide to do something about it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Apology accepted

 

[Hoomi]

Don't you also risk puncturing your dry suit? Wouldn't that be worse than poking a hole in a semi-dry suit? In the case that you punctured both BCD and and dry suit, you'd be in bad shape right?

I've never dove in a dry suit, so I don't know, but it seems more vulnerable to puncture than a BCD bladder.

While I've never dove a dry suit, thinking logically here, the answer seems to be a matter of keeping a cool head in the situation.

I would think it would depend on just how big a hole was made in either BC or dry suit. Just like any air-filled bladder device, which includes car tires, a leak will be somewhere in the range of large and fast, to small and slow. A slow leak would be troublesome to a degree, but not necessarily catastrophic. If a diver has sufficient air in the tank to offset the loss during ascent, then once they are at the surface they can keep offsetting the leak by manually inflating if necessary, if they have a prolonged wait or swim before getting out of the water.

A large, fast leak could still be dealt with, if the hole can be reached by either the diver or buddy, and and is such that it could be pinched closed, hence temporarily reducing a fast leak to a slower leak. Keeping the tear lower than other, still intact portions of the bladder will allow some air to remain within, providing at least a little lift.

In some cases, heavy gear such as cameras or lights could potentially be passed over to the dive buddy, and/or the diver with the damaged suit/BC could lock arms with the dive buddy and make use of his buoyancy system as needed.

Even as a n00b, what I would see as the greatest danger with a damaged buoyancy device isn't so much the loss of potential buoyancy, but rather the risk of panicking and doing something foolish. The most important thing in any emergency situation is maintaining clear thought so that we proceed in the best possible manner under the circumstances.

Just my n00bish thoughts, hopefully back more on track with a useful discussion.

 

[northen diver]

Well, you're wrong on that one, because I did in fact take a Solo course and received a Solo certification, so that's strike one.

It's safe to say that I never took a Dry Suit course however.

Perhaps that's what you meant to type?

So, you took and passed a solo course, yet you dont know about redundant bouyancy, or how to calculate a gas plan.

I call B.S. Mind sharing with us who your instructor was?

 

[northen diver]

I have previously determined that I can safely bailout from 135 feet, the hypothetical maximum depth I would ever be diving to, with a 19cf Pony bottle should I experience an unexpected OOA situation. My max depth to date is 130 feet and most of my dives are below 100 feet.

That's good enough for me.

Your results may vary.

Would you mind sharing how you calculated this?

 

[idocsteve]

So, you took and passed a solo course, yet you dont know about redundant bouyancy, or how to calculate a gas plan.

I call B.S. Mind sharing with us who your instructor was?

Where did I post on this thread that I don't know about redundant buoyancy, (at least I can spell it correctly), or that I don't know how to calculate a gas plan? The question is of course rhetorical, because I did no such thing.

I have posted that I have, in the past, calculated that I can make a safe ascent from recreational diving depths using a 19 cf Pony bottle, which I carry on every dive, and I have posted elsewhere on this board that I carry a lift bag as well as a reel on every dive and that a lift bag can be used for additional buoyancy if necessary.

The redundancy provided by dry suits is not part of the SDI Solo Diving course because a dry suit is not a requirement for Solo Diving.

As far as providing you with details regarding my certifications, I would prefer to not disclose that information on a public forum, nor share that information with an anonymous internet forum poster.

 

[fnfalman]

If one were to dive wetsuit and were to need or require double redundancy for lift, instead of carrying around lift bags can one not get a double-bladder wing? What are the chances of both bladders being punctured at the same time or both corrugated hoses failing or both power inflators failing at the same time?

I'd like to hear inputs from those that dive with double-bladder wings because this may be a feature that I might consider in the future. I don't do drysuit and if I don't have to tie or tuck anything to my plate, I'd rather not.

 

[TSandM]

jtbut, in answer to your question about how much buoyancy a 7 mil suit can lose, the GUE guys played with one and came to the conclusion that a relatively new suit (that would, I assume, fit a typical male diver) can lose upwards of 20 lbs of lift at 100 feet. (The figure they gave was 23, for the suit they tested). This means that, if you are even neutral at the surface at the beginning of the dive (the most positive you should ever be) you could be 23 pounds negative a couple of minutes later, when you reach a hundred feet. 23 pounds is a lot to swim up. If you also add 7 pounds or so for a 100 cubic foot tank's worth of gas, you've got THIRTY pounds to swim up. Not very many people are going to be able to do that, although *dave* has a video of him swimming up 23.

It is very much worth regarding the possible loss of buoyancy from the compression of thick neoprene. Many divers here in the Sound, if they dive wet, dive with two layers of 7 mil on their torsos. They have a tremendous buoyancy loss at deeper depths. The lesson is, either have redundant lift or have significant ditchable weight. The problem with the latter as a bailout plan is that, when the neoprene rebounds, you will lose control of your ascent rate.

It is highly unlikely that you will tear both your wing and your suit to the point where you can't contain any gas in either (I suppose getting into wash rocks with mussels on them might do it!) More likely is a small puncture in one or the other, which would permit maintaining some gas in the proper attitude. Again, technical divers plan for the worst case, every dive; for recreational divers, I think it's worth looking at the potential for a bad outcome, and taking whatever precautions are reasonable.

Drysuits add up to a bunch of benefits in cold water, which outweigh their drag problems.

 

[gcbryan]

Steve, it's great that you're thinking about streamlining. Shortening your primary hose might not be the best solution if you are going to also use your integrated second.

If you ever have a dive buddy and they need air you will go to your Air2 and donate your primary hose. If you shorten it ....that might not be the best way to go.

If you have a retractor on your BC inflator hose because it's long enough to flop around and now you're thinking about getting an even longer one...that might not be the best way to go either. Look at the hoses on most BP/W's they're very short and work well.

Drysuits keep you warmer. Just because everyone complains about being cold (including me) and sometimes even a little wet doesn't mean it's the same as a wetsuit. It's not. If you have enough extra "bioprene" then perhaps you are warm enough in the conditions in which you dive. No one is trying to talk you into getting a drysuit.

You really should read Bob's Gas Management article or get that info somewhere. Your plan is a little too simple to say the least.

I'm on boats in a single where there are also others in doubles and we all get in and out at about the same time. People get cold at about the same time and boats have schedules but I have no idea on how long the doubles divers are at max depth even when we both go to the same max depth.

It doesn't matter to me but I don't assume that my dive and theirs was exactly the same in terms of time at depth. Again, no one has suggested that you get doubles. If you're diving in the NE I'd think that HP steel 119's or something like that along with a larger bailout bottle would be a good idea if you go to the 130 fsw range.

 

[idocsteve]

Shortening your primary hose might not be the best solution if you are going to also use your integrated second. If you ever have a dive buddy and they need air you will go to your Air2 and donate your primary hose. If you shorten it ....that might not be the best way to go.

Good point. Maybe I'll leave the regulator hose as is. I haven't had a problem with it getting caught up on anything.

If you have a retractor on your BC inflator hose because it's long enough to flop around and now you're thinking about getting an even longer one...that might not be the best way to go either. Look at the hoses on most BP/W's they're very short and work well.

bryan let me clarify. I purchased a Seaquest Balance BCD a few weeks ago from a local dive shop. My old BCD was from a discontinued manufacturer, among other problems were the integrated weights which were held in with velcro, which had lost most of it's holding ability over the years, and on several dives the pouch slipped out. I finally lost one for good on a recent dive trip, so it was time for a change.

I have not yet dived with the Seaquest BCD. The vent hose is way too short, to the point where it pulls on the side of my mouth, and the inflator hose is much longer than the vent hose causing it to form a loop. So the Dive Shop owner ordered me a vent hose that is a few inches longer. I figure the retractor I used on the old BCD will serve the same purpose on the new BCD but perhaps it won't be needed.

I'm on boats in a single where there are also others in doubles and we all get in and out at about the same time. People get cold at about the same time and boats have schedules but I have no idea on how long the doubles divers are at max depth even when we both go to the same max depth.

All I can tell you is that on the dives I do, I'm spending most of my dive at the maximum depth or at least the most interesting part of the wreck, and I've got similar bottom times to the doubles guys and cold isn't a big problem for me, so I don't see the need for the upgrade. Plus those doubled rigs are freaking HEAVY.

I'd think that HP steel 119's or something like that along with a larger bailout bottle would be a good idea if you go to the 130 fsw range.

Most of my dives to date have been under 100 feet with the occasional excursion to greater depths. Upgrading to a larger tank would be a reasonable next step if I chose to expand my diving.

 

[JeffG]

Which diver in the following picture is more streamlined?

Merry Christmas Bob

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